Body Armor and Handguns

M

Mike H

New member
I just got through reading a newspaper article about a house burglar (aka opportunist rapist) who was caught wearing body armor, threat level type not specified. As even the lowest level protection offers resistance to handgun velocity 9mm and .45 ammo, and body armor is freely available, I see the only practical solution being a switch to a .223 rifle in the house or practising head shots in the dark at 5 yards. As all penetrating handgun ammo is banned by Federal law as it could be used in assaults on LEO's is there an answer here or is this just one of those solutions in search of a problem,

Regards,

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Mike H
 
I could go the Mini route with .223's, but is that really necessary? First, I don't think it's that common. Second, if I'm hitting a guy in body armor with 9's or .357's or .40's, what's the result? Does he at least get knocked down / wind knocked out of him? Eventually, I'm hitting something other than armor and causing major pain.
 
Mike;
I really think, if you are hit, at 5 yards with a .45 even wearing body armour you will stop an attack. at least if you are smart you will. because I am going to empty the gun, and keep on reloadin until you stop.

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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best
 
Generally, when someone is shot he/she does not 'get knocked down.' We've all been been brainwashed by the fantasies we've seen on TV. Look at the physics of a shooting. It would require a real large projectile travelling at high speed to knock a human off his feet. Although I've never been shot (praise the Lord) I've had discussions with several officer who have. None were knocked down. One may collapse from loss of blood pressure, one may collapse from pain, but generally one is knocked down by a bullet. I try to remember all the deer I've hit and they didn't just fall.
 
I would treat a break-in situation no differently. Even with body-armor, the BG will fall or be pushed back. If hostile actions continue, double-tap to the throat/upper chest area... if the BG STILL makes agressive moves, double-tap to the groin/hip area...

I would NOT recommend a .223 for home defense. Penetration can send rounds into the next house.

The movies make a big deal of body armor... but body armor is easy to defeat... if you are trained and practice properly...

Body armor is only designed to give you a little extra edge, and a little more protection... it doesn't make you invulnerable. I once watched a TV show where the BG was OBVIOUSLY wearing heavy body armor. They showed about 4 or 5 cops pumping rounds into his chest area with little or no effect.... duhhhhh!!!!!

Me? I would have taken his legs or head out... you can't shoot without a head and if your legs are all shot up, you're not going to WANT to shoot anymore...

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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
 
Chuck Taylor once demonstrated being fired apon while wearing body armor. The results were very shocking. He felt he was able to draw his weapon and return fire. A local police officer was shot three times in the vest, after the second shot, he drew his weapon and fired at his attacker (the cop was ambushed at a hair salon). While engaging the guy, he took a third shot to the vest. He was able to continue fighting, killing his attacker after drawing his weapon under fire.

You don't fly from being hit by any projectile, even rifled shotgun slugs. The max amount of injury you might sustain from being shot while wearing body armor is bruises or in extreme cases, broken ribs.

What's wrong with a 12 gauge shotgun? Mount a sure-fire tac light, train for perp's wearing body armor. If the first round from your tube doesn't put him out, aim for his head. Or you can go with a lever action .30-30. More powerfull than any .223 out there, simple, cheap and it hasn't been banned yet!
 
Look on the 'net for Second Chance body armor videos. There is one out there that demonstrates the designer of the vest being shot *point-blank* with a .308 caliber HK91, and in no way is he displaced visually. This is an extreme example of energy transfer, but the energy that we're talking about with point-blank .308 is immense - still, the guy doesn't flinch or drop or even appear to be phased. This is the highest level body armor out there.

Incidentally, Second Chance is known for proving it's trust in the product by the owner taking a .357 Magnum with full cylinder and spinning the cylinder to a random chamber, putting the muzzle to his chest and firing. After putting one into his own vest, he shoots pins with the remaining rounds to prove that it was a standard .357 Magnum round, taken at random, and stopped within the vest without sufficient shock or damage to render him incapable of aimed fire.

This is for-real, guys. Vests are effective when shots hit them as they're designed. That's why you should train Mozambique or equivalant style. HTH,
 
Body armor concern is why I picked a Mini14 back then. Reasoned that poor accuracy isn't relevant.
However, my rifles are in a safe which isn't fast to open. How do folks who keep their long arms handy do it?
For now I hope that 19 rounds of 9x19 would so confuse any intruder that I'd be able to get to a rifle...
 
In regards to shotguns, does anyone make slugs with sub-caliber steel penetrators for 12/20ga? Those ought to work wonders on Kevlar...
 
The Second Chance videos really are excellent for anyone who's interested in body armor. They're fairly entertaining, too; my wife, who's not a shooter, sat down and watched my copy with me.

I think that armored bad guys are still fairly rare. My plan for dealing with one is to apply the standard failure-to-stop drill: after two rounds to center mass, aim for the head (or pelvis, if a head shot isn't practical).

Oleg: How about one of the Remington copper solid sabot rounds? That should have a decent chance of penetrating the lighter vests.
 
I don't know anything about knock down power of any handgun or rifle cartridge but from personal experience I can testify to the knock down power of 8 pellets from waist down of #8 from a 12guage from about 20 yards!

It feels like someone has hit you with a 2x4 from a full swing. You may survive it but you won't ever forget it!

RKBA!
 
I remember reading that 12ga rounds are more likely to over-penetrate than .223. I keep my mini-14 by my bed at night. When I get up I put it back in the safe.

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May your lead always hit center mass and your brass always land in your range bag.

~Blades~
 
This is only a theory, but flechette rounds avaliable for shot guns should be able penetrate soft body armor. What the terminal effect on the body would be I don't know however. The flechettes would have no where the effect of artillery or rocket delievered flechettes.
 
230 grain .45 hard ball will knock you down while wearing a vest. I hit the ground pretty good.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
 
Actualy you guys are all wrong about .223. Recent studies have found that most handgun calibers will actualy penetrate more than .223 55 grain ammo will. The reason being.. most handgun rounds are simply a lot bigger slug. The .223 will penetrate the first layer of whatever it hits... and then quickly fragment and lose most of its power. Handgun rounds... especialy from a .45 will not fragment usualy and stay intact penetrating several layers (walls or whatever). There is an article about this on the olympic arms AR15 web page if you are interested.
 
I think that low penetration study of .223 rounds is for soft tip or JHP ammo. I remember reading about a tragedy where a guy capped a round off (negligent discharge)from his mini 14 when handling it in an apartment block. If I remember rightly the FMJ round holed 8 internal walls before stopping in a sleeping 12 year old girl killing her instantly, an absolute tragedy but testament to how a .223 FMJ will just keep going.

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Mike H
 
I dont really buy that... the article specifically refers to the common 55 grain FMJ and some other similar grain loads. It did specifically say FMJ. You are forgetting that its such a lightweight round that it fragments. That incident you mention COULD have happened and I wont say that it didn't it just seems very farfetched to me. Possibly if the M855 steel tip penetrator ammo was used that could happen. But ordinary 55 grain FMJ simply will fragment and lose all but a tiny bit of its velocity. After the round penetrates the first layer it can penetrate it well but after that the bullet loses all stability and velocity. I would feel more safe using 55 grain FMJ in a .223 than I would using a .45 which retains most of its power even after penetrating a wall or 2. The same for buckshot and even 9mm can penetrate more than is safe. For the longest time .223 has been feared as a big pentrater and therefor not used by many police agencies. But if you will notice now.. the current trend after MANY tests done by the FBI and other agencies is to switch from the submachine guns using 9mm such as the MP5 to the lightweight .223 carbines like the M4. Ive seen many accounts where the police have used M4s in raids in apartment complexes. I doubt they would do this if the .223 was such a great penetrator.
 
You have a point KowHunter, I've read several conflicting tales of .223 penetration, one was an army article that stated the .223 out of an M-16 is most effective under 100 yards as the bullet has sufficient velocity to fracture at its mid-point on entry into tissue. I confess to being confused, perhaps any army guys out there with plenty of .223 FMJ experience can help us out,

Regards,


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Mike H
 
Yeah I would like to know for sure. I'll be honest with you.. the only knowledge on this that I have is from what I have read in reports on FBI tests and such. So I really dont know for SURE that this is true. I would like to set up some penetration tests myself but I dont really know how to do it efficiently. I would assume some sheet rock squares set up at certain lenghts apart and then shoot at them to see how many it goes through. Maybe try to see if it will penetrate much through some studs too. I dont know for sure what would be the most effective way to test it but I am willing to try if anyone here can give me some ideas on what might work the best.

I have heard that the best .223 round for defense is the Hornady 60 grain Urban TAP ballistic tip .223 bullets. They probably wouldnt penetrate as much as a 55 grain FMJ. This is what I keep loaded in a mag for defense although I must say I would never probably use the AR unless my life was in danger by attack from multiple assailants. The courts dont seem to agree with you when you use a black gun to defend yourself. I still think the best bet is a shotgun with a WELL placed shot of #1 buck.. but due to pretty good penetration you have to be careful. Anyhow let me know some ideas on how a penetration test regarding .223 might be setup properly and I will see if I can do some testing.
 
The guy making 2nd chance armor has stepped up to using a .44 Mag on himself (just plain scary to watch) an it's doesn't knock him down, either. (yes,I realize there are opposing forces) Anyway, on another note, flechettes are not intended for immidiate results. They are not indended to kill (not that it's necessary) and more so, they are intended to slow down large troop movements because 1. they can only be found with x-rays, and 2. a wounded guy requires at least two guys to help him. Besides, flechettes would probably not perform satisfactorily when fired through armor.
 
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