Black Powder in War
- Thread starter DennisCA
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swathdiver
New member
Thanks for the askin' the question DennisCA and thanks fellas for the information filled replies! Great stuff! 
Correct that the standard cartridge box held 40 rounds. There was one general who was conducting and inspection and the soldiers were ordered to open their cartridge box. Unbeknownst to the sergeant, the men had removed his cartridges and replaced it with a deck of cards. The general saw that and closed the flap and held his hand there. He then asked the sergeant how many he had. The sergeant promptly responded, "Forty, sir." The general replied, "There should be fifty-two" and went onto the next soldier. The sergeant was puzzled and it was not recorded how he responded when they were dismissed.
Regarding the minie, it was somewhat self cleaning, being undersized with an expanding skirt that could clear out some fouling. But at times minie guns also fouled. It's the nature of blackpowder.
Regarding the minie, it was somewhat self cleaning, being undersized with an expanding skirt that could clear out some fouling. But at times minie guns also fouled. It's the nature of blackpowder.
LeadZinger
New member
Interesting enough the surviving medical reports from both the Union and Confederate Medical Departments indicate that very few deaths or wounds occurred from the use of the bayonet or swords. After the war I believe there was an official study on this particular matter and the conclusion was that edged weapons just were not effective in modern warfare of the time. Death from blount trauma was much more common. This all seems to point to the conclusion that in a melee soldiers much preferred to use their muskets and pistol butts as clubs, along with the ever present rock.
At 2nd Bull Run some of A P Hills units threw rocks when ammunition ran out, as did units belonging to George Thomas at Chickamauga. After Antietam and Shiloh, with only a few exceptions, units quit standing in alignment delivering volley fire at an opponent standing yards away doing the same. Soldiers of the time were not stupid and soon learned that the best battle line was one on which they created some cover and built up an overwhelming mass of independent fire power with which to discourage an attacking or defending enemy.
Because of this change in tactics I believe that the 2nd most important thing on the battle line after amumnition was water. This was probably used liberally to clean out fouled rifles with urinating down the bore a distant option. Soldiers were probably to dehydrated themselves to do this very often after a period of time on the line. Ammunition and water parties are frequently mentioned in unit histories of recorded battles. Veteran units would take it upon themselves to conduct a retrograd movement when; they ran out of ammunition; they ran out of water; they felt the opposing force had the greater firepower, and definetely when all three occurred at once.
First person diaries, letters, unit histories, after action reports found in the Official Records are all great sources from which to build a picture of just what life was like during the Civil War.
At 2nd Bull Run some of A P Hills units threw rocks when ammunition ran out, as did units belonging to George Thomas at Chickamauga. After Antietam and Shiloh, with only a few exceptions, units quit standing in alignment delivering volley fire at an opponent standing yards away doing the same. Soldiers of the time were not stupid and soon learned that the best battle line was one on which they created some cover and built up an overwhelming mass of independent fire power with which to discourage an attacking or defending enemy.
Because of this change in tactics I believe that the 2nd most important thing on the battle line after amumnition was water. This was probably used liberally to clean out fouled rifles with urinating down the bore a distant option. Soldiers were probably to dehydrated themselves to do this very often after a period of time on the line. Ammunition and water parties are frequently mentioned in unit histories of recorded battles. Veteran units would take it upon themselves to conduct a retrograd movement when; they ran out of ammunition; they ran out of water; they felt the opposing force had the greater firepower, and definetely when all three occurred at once.
First person diaries, letters, unit histories, after action reports found in the Official Records are all great sources from which to build a picture of just what life was like during the Civil War.
LeadZinger
New member
Interesting enough the surviving medical reports from both the Union and Confederate Medical Departments indicate that very few deaths or wounds occurred from the use of the bayonet or swords. After the war I believe there was an official study on this particular matter and the conclusion was that edged weapons just were not effective in modern warfare of the time. Death from blount trauma was much more common. This all seems to point to the conclusion that in a melee soldiers much preferred to use their muskets and pistol butts as clubs, along with the ever present rock.
At 2nd Bull Run some of A P Hills units threw rocks when ammunition ran out, as did units belonging to George Thomas at Chickamauga. After Antietam and Shiloh, with only a few exceptions, units quit standing in alignment delivering volley fire at an opponent standing yards away doing the same. Soldiers of the time were not stupid and soon learned that the best battle line was one on which they created some cover and built up an overwhelming mass of independent fire power with which to discourage an attacking or defending enemy.
Because of this change in tactics I believe that the 2nd most important thing on the battle line after amumnition was water. This was probably used liberally to clean out fouled rifles with urinating down the bore a distant option. Soldiers were probably to dehydrated themselves to do this very often after a period of time on the line. Ammunition and water parties are frequently mentioned in unit histories of recorded battles. Veteran units would take it upon themselves to conduct a retrograd movement when; they ran out of ammunition; they ran out of water; they felt the opposing force had the greater firepower, and definetely when all three occurred at once.
First person diaries, letters, unit histories, after action reports found in the Official Records are all great sources from which to build a picture of just what life was like during the Civil War.
At 2nd Bull Run some of A P Hills units threw rocks when ammunition ran out, as did units belonging to George Thomas at Chickamauga. After Antietam and Shiloh, with only a few exceptions, units quit standing in alignment delivering volley fire at an opponent standing yards away doing the same. Soldiers of the time were not stupid and soon learned that the best battle line was one on which they created some cover and built up an overwhelming mass of independent fire power with which to discourage an attacking or defending enemy.
Because of this change in tactics I believe that the 2nd most important thing on the battle line after amumnition was water. This was probably used liberally to clean out fouled rifles with urinating down the bore a distant option. Soldiers were probably to dehydrated themselves to do this very often after a period of time on the line. Ammunition and water parties are frequently mentioned in unit histories of recorded battles. Veteran units would take it upon themselves to conduct a retrograd movement when; they ran out of ammunition; they ran out of water; they felt the opposing force had the greater firepower, and definetely when all three occurred at once.
First person diaries, letters, unit histories, after action reports found in the Official Records are all great sources from which to build a picture of just what life was like during the Civil War.
A lot depends on what war at what time. I read about John Churchill, the 1st Duke of Marlborough, during the War of the Spanish Succession 1701-1714 he usually fought only 1 or two major battles each year plus some sieges. A combination of a lack of surplus manpower which made replacing casualties difficult, a lack of agricultural surplus which made logistical considerations paramount-since wars were considered disputes between rulers rather than nation, foraging and requisitioning from the peasants was frowned on and rarely resorted to- poor roads, transport totally dependent on wagons put more emphasis on maneuver than combat.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
maillemaker,
Whaty you describe as your weekend activity is nothing like James K presents.
You are firing at half the rate when active. Active less than half the time (5 minutes shooting, 5 resetting targets and getting a drink, plus breaks). I am not sure how many matches you shoot, but you indicate 60 rounds per match, half of what was mentioned. If you are shooting 60 rounds in 4-6 hours, my guess as to what you mean by a whole day of shooting and shooting a match a day, that only works out to one in 4 or one in 6 minutes. 1/16th to 1/64th the rate top soldiers of the era are credited with.
I might be able to shoot two rounds a minute loading as fast as I could with a musket. That would take 20 minutes to shoot all 40. I would not be at my best at that point. Extend it out to 60 or 120 rounds in 30 or 60 minutes, combined with breathing the smoke and having it in my eyes, the other stresses of the battlefield, the heat of it all, etc, and I probably couldn't make it. Mix in normal Civil War era pre-battle conditions such as marching on foot, nutrition, sleeping on the ground, constant sickness and my prospects lower considerably.
A single anecdote with estimated numbers in a range of nearly one order magnitude. More Western mythology than data. Besides, the Rangers were using revolvers. If either side in the civil war had soldiers armed 100% with two revolvers instead of muskets it would have been a different war. Since you load the cylinder with 6 positions one could fire 48-60 rounds before reaching the aforementioned fouling limit of 4-5.
The musket was a junk weapon even with a mini-ball, but when you are arming tens of thousands that come from all walks of life it makes sense.
Whaty you describe as your weekend activity is nothing like James K presents.
You are firing at half the rate when active. Active less than half the time (5 minutes shooting, 5 resetting targets and getting a drink, plus breaks). I am not sure how many matches you shoot, but you indicate 60 rounds per match, half of what was mentioned. If you are shooting 60 rounds in 4-6 hours, my guess as to what you mean by a whole day of shooting and shooting a match a day, that only works out to one in 4 or one in 6 minutes. 1/16th to 1/64th the rate top soldiers of the era are credited with.
I might be able to shoot two rounds a minute loading as fast as I could with a musket. That would take 20 minutes to shoot all 40. I would not be at my best at that point. Extend it out to 60 or 120 rounds in 30 or 60 minutes, combined with breathing the smoke and having it in my eyes, the other stresses of the battlefield, the heat of it all, etc, and I probably couldn't make it. Mix in normal Civil War era pre-battle conditions such as marching on foot, nutrition, sleeping on the ground, constant sickness and my prospects lower considerably.
A single anecdote with estimated numbers in a range of nearly one order magnitude. More Western mythology than data. Besides, the Rangers were using revolvers. If either side in the civil war had soldiers armed 100% with two revolvers instead of muskets it would have been a different war. Since you load the cylinder with 6 positions one could fire 48-60 rounds before reaching the aforementioned fouling limit of 4-5.
The musket was a junk weapon even with a mini-ball, but when you are arming tens of thousands that come from all walks of life it makes sense.
"Easy loading" may have been an elusive thing after many rounds were fired. i have hundreds of spent US Army bullets that i picked up from civil war battle fields and firing ranges. About ten percent of those bullets show signs of being very difficult to load. Most noticeable are badly deformed ogives from pounding or "whanging" the ramrod onto the bullet.
maillemaker
New member
A typical N-SSA team competition starts at noon on Saturday, following individual target shooting that was going on all morning.
Typically they shoot at least Carbine and Smoothbore. Sometimes also Revolver.
Carbine events typically involve 4-5 courses of fire, starting at 50 yards with 20 clay pigeons on a sheet of cardboard, followed by 10 hanging pigeons, followed by 10 hanging tiles, followed by 10 hanging water-filled coffee cups, followed by 5 2-liter bottles at 100 yards.
When we do poorly and go full time, I typically shoot 12 or so shots per course of fire, and courses of fire are 5 minutes long. So a little over 2 shots per minute, and about 60 shots for the entire team event. However, often we do well and clear our targets before the full time allotment and so of course I shoot fewer shots. Typically there is about 5-10 minutes in between courses of fire, which is just enough time to clean your gun and hang targets for the next course of fire.
This is immediately followed by Smoothbore which follows a similar format except I think their events are only 3 minutes long and are at 25 and 50 yards. I don't have a smoothbore yet so I don't shoot this event.
This is followed by revolver or sometimes specialty matches such as repeating rifles.
Sunday morning is for musket shooting and is the same format as carbine.
I make up 100 rounds for my long arms and usually shoot about 75 of them between team and individual shooting. I'm betting the smoothbore guys probably shoot 50 or so rounds. So you can figure 200 rounds over the course of the weekend.
Steve
maillemaker
New member
I don't see any problem at all from normal shooting for 40 rounds of ammo. Again I'm not talking about the heat of battle which I have not experienced.
But you can shoot 40 rounds of ammo without any great stress. I did 30 non-stop while testing lube and stopped because there was no appreciable difference in loading after 30 rounds. I was not going for speed though.
I'm tempted now to go to the range and see how much ammo I can go through rapid-fire.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "junk weapon".
Steve
LeadZinger
New member
Agree with Hawg, it is hard to call an Enfield a junk weapon with a straight face. Certainly would not want to be standing in front of one when it went off!!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that during the CW it took fewer rounds fired to create a casualty than any war fought during the 20th century with "modern" weapons. The effectiveness of black powder muzzleloaders and the efficiency of the soldiers that used them is attested to by the over 600,000 casualties they created in a four year period.
Hawg - if you can hit a five gallon can at three hundred yards with a P53 Enfield, my hat is off to you. I can not even see 300 yards!!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that during the CW it took fewer rounds fired to create a casualty than any war fought during the 20th century with "modern" weapons. The effectiveness of black powder muzzleloaders and the efficiency of the soldiers that used them is attested to by the over 600,000 casualties they created in a four year period.
Hawg - if you can hit a five gallon can at three hundred yards with a P53 Enfield, my hat is off to you. I can not even see 300 yards!!
maillemaker
New member
I feel like I'm defending the position here that N-SSA shooting is like shooting in a Civil War battle, and I'm most definitely not.
I'm just saying, shooting 40 rounds consecutively is not going to break you physically.
But a typical Civil War soldier could not shoot 40 rounds consecutively, let alone 120.
The cartridge box only provides ready access to 20 rounds. After those are expended the soldier would have to stop and pull the tins from their cartridge box to access the two reserve arsenal packs, open them, and put the cartridges into the top of the tins. Then they could resume firing.
After 40 shots they would need a resupply unless they had some arsenal packs tucked away in a pocket or somewhere else.
Steve
I'm just saying, shooting 40 rounds consecutively is not going to break you physically.
But a typical Civil War soldier could not shoot 40 rounds consecutively, let alone 120.
The cartridge box only provides ready access to 20 rounds. After those are expended the soldier would have to stop and pull the tins from their cartridge box to access the two reserve arsenal packs, open them, and put the cartridges into the top of the tins. Then they could resume firing.
After 40 shots they would need a resupply unless they had some arsenal packs tucked away in a pocket or somewhere else.
Steve
60% of the deaths in the Civil War were due to disease. Their practices
of sanitation-Germ Theory ?-What's That? would turn our stomachs. The wounds inflicted by smoothbores and Minie balls were more horrendous, that big chunk of lead was just right for smashing bones and tearing muscle to shreds.
of sanitation-Germ Theory ?-What's That? would turn our stomachs. The wounds inflicted by smoothbores and Minie balls were more horrendous, that big chunk of lead was just right for smashing bones and tearing muscle to shreds.
gunslinger2000
New member
That's one reason why the loads in one of my house guns are blackpowder. An intruder isn't likely to survive to sue me. Gangrene is likely to get him if the shot doesn't. LOL. gunslinger
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Honestly I don't know if I could do it now since my eyesight has deteriorated from diabetes and I couldn't hit it with every shot, just most of them. I put the can at the waters edge against the bank of a pond when the water was low so I could tell when I was hitting low but most misses were to the side. yeah, yeah, yeah I know about shooting at water but there's nothing behind it except trees.