Black Americans, the NRA and Guns

In fact Martin Luther King, after his home was firebombed in 1956, applied for a gun permit in Alabama and was turned down.
Click to expand...

Lesse. No posts re race, politics, political ideology.

Ok. The above quote is pretty funny. Typical of how (particular demographics) are motivated by assumptions and prejudice.

"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

The tragedy is that these people actually get to vote.
 
If you want a good scholarly take on firearms and interaction with the civil rights movment -

http://www.amazon.com/Will-Shoot-Back-Resistance-Mississippi/dp/0814725244

We Will Shoot Back: Armed Resistance in the Mississippi Freedom Movement

It documents how African-Americans uses firearms to protect themselves and debates within the civil rights movements about the use of firearms.

Also see:

http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/16353/deacons-for-defense-and-justice/

Note the positive interaction with the NRA mentioned in Kopel's article. In fact, David and I discussed this way back when after an criminology society meeting, so I might have turned him on to the story.

I view these stories as the clearest examples of the utility of firearms being used to defend against tyranny in the USA. The racism in the South was supported directly by the local government and also indirectly. It is stronger than the usual stories bandied about. Also, it speaks to the high cap issue. One story (book is at work) mentions how an African-American man defended his family against numerous night-riders by firing the entire mag of a rifle. So what would Shotgun Joe think about that?
 
Let me suggest to you a program:
The NRA charters a bus from the center of Atlanta to a range and back. I assume there are very limited range options in the city. Limit participation to certain protected classes as defined by Federal Anti-discrimination Act and people 21+. At the range they offer free basic firearms instruction.

Require sign-up one month in advance, leave at 8AM, 22 rifle instruction only. That will eliminate most possible problems.
Maybe RWVA could chip in with some of that half a million dollars or so they are holding in reserve and, more importantly, instructors. Actually on the face it seems more suitable to RWVA.
Anyone see the NRA at all interested in this program? Dollar for dollar is this program going to produce better results than some programs already funded by the NRA?

The firearms industry regularly discounts/subsidizes activities to get children into shooting, but the idea of doing so for minorities is met with stiff resistance. In one personal experience, advertising a youth program supported in part by NRA grant(s) where "outsiders" could view it and gain access was met with disgust. Not specific entirely specific to minorities, but the people running it basically wanted all the money for their kids so they promoted in ways to limit who would see the promotion. The minority aspect was a small part of it, but present. It is a strong barrier to entry for any under-represented group. It isn't just the NRA of course.

On the positive side things are changing, at least in some ways. Two hunting clubs I belonged to now have non-white members. Neither did when I joined ten years ago. In both cases there was a lot less drama than was feared. The die hard "old codgers" who wanted to throw a fit were more or less at the point where they couldn't medically. The younger members with problems accepted it as inevitable and kept their mouths shut.

The NRA has at times taken decisions in their political support that seem to be based on criteria other than 2A record in favor of conservative candidates. It seems an issue they struggle with, but it also seems as though there is an active effort to not do so. I am unaware of any political organization that doe not have a similar problem.
 
Last edited:
49 years ago my dad went down to Alabama and participated in an MLK led march. My dad is white. He was out walking with a friend when a group of white guys pulled up in a car, engaged them in conversation, and then one of the guys in the car pulled out a pistol and told them to go back up north.

My dad and his friend were staying with a black family. They went back to the family's house and reported their encounter. My dad said that the father in the household simply went to the closet, got a shotgun, and then sat down in the living room with the gun across his lap while they talked for most of the rest of the night. Dad said he never made any threats, or even brought the gun up in conversation.

Dad is more liberal than I am. We often debate gun control. And sometimes I bring up that story.
 
What you can see in the video is an honest discussion.

The most important thing I see in the video is that virtually everyone interviewed defends the 2nd Amendment. The majority of the folks speaking defend the right to keep and carry guns and point to numerous instances of where firearms have played a role in defending democratic rights or life and limb.

One woman points to the rapper who in the aftermath of one school shooting cautioned folks not to let the government take their guns using the massacre as an excuse.

To me the defense of the 2nd and the Bill of Rights begins with that common ground.

tipoc
 
I would remind folks that general comments regarding this or that race are not the domain of TFL. The discussion is restricted to RKBA issues.

I have deleted such. Next such post will get an infraction.
 
One of the men in the video makes an important point. He says no he's not a member of the NRA. He says he's not sure what they'd call the group he's a member of but it's (quoting loosely here) "the can't get a permit to carry a gun, have guns that are unregistered, live in a place where it's illegal to have them but have them anyway club". Whatever you'd call that club is what he and many Black folks are members of he says.

Right there is an old school true thing.

It's harder for working class people to get carry permits, especially if they are Black or Mexican. Myriad laws make this so and even in shall issue states the cops are less likely to issue permits to folks whose families have a member who is in jail or has been in prison.

Where I live most folk who carry do not have a legal right to do so but do anyway and hope they don't get stopped and frisked.

To what extent does the NRA take up this issue? Not at all fully. They are for easier permits but hang back from pointing out the obvious discrimination involved.

It also points to the deep distrust of an intrusive government that works to deny you the right of self defense.

The man who said these things is an ally and can be learned from.

tipoc
 
What you can see in the video is an honest discussion.
Click to expand...
Ok - I jumped ahead in the video to the 5:00min mark and - it does take a much different twist.
I'll give you that.

However - I do stand firm on my first impression, based on the first 2:00 min.

It's very poorly done & it's initial message is mixed at best.
 
"the can't get a permit to carry a gun, have guns that are unregistered, live in a place where it's illegal to have them but have them anyway club"
Click to expand...

This club, and the "Law Abiding Citizen" club are mutually exclusive.

FWIW, were TPTB ever to outlaw guns, I'd switch clubs.
 
"the can't get a permit to carry a gun, have guns that are unregistered, live in a place where it's illegal to have them but have them anyway club"

This club, and the "Law Abiding Citizen" club are mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...

And that's a major problem. Technically, everyone in that group is a criminal (because they are breaking the law), but there are a lot of folks in that group that the gun law is essentially the only law they break.

When you are in a place where you cannot legally have a gun, but feel you need one, what do you do? Only two options, don't have a gun, and hope for the best, or have a gun, and hope for the best (never getting caught with the gun). Lots of folks will take the risk, figuring, worst case, better to be tried by 12, etc...
 
I got the feeling from several in the video that they were in agreement with what the N.R.A. stood for and saw the need for the N.R.A. However there is a stereotype or prejudiced view against any one who is a member. One question would be how does the N.R.A. go about changing that view, or how to get the rest of America to see the real N.R.A. Although the people in the video were black, I know of a whole bunch of white people who share the same viewpoints.
 
On black Americans and guns (don't know if he mentions NRA) Professor Nicholas Johnson has just published a book, Negroes and the Gun: The Black Tradition of Arms.

See Volokh for the announcement, and Professor Johnson will be blogging next week.
 
Last edited:
Here is a recording of Chicago Mayor Daley talking to President Johnson in 1966. Pay careful attention starting at the 12:25 mark, you'll hear Daley saying that while he can control what happens in the city something must be done about non-whites buying guns in the suburbs.
 
In the Feb. 2014 issue of "The American Rifleman" Chris Cox has a useful article explaining why the NRA joined with the ACLU (hated and detested by some conservatives) in a lawsuit against the government's collection of metadata.

This is a good example of instances where the NRA steps up to defend broader democratic rights and form alliances. This kind of action, when honestly explained, wins battles and new allies.

But you can also blow it by being less then honest. The NSA spying on Americans began in a massive way under the Bush administration with the support of both Republicans and Democrats. Only a few spoke out against it, a pitiful few in Congress. The extent of the abuse increased greatly under Obama. Again until recent revelations few spoke against it.

This is a government power issue and not an "Obama" issue. To cast it as a Democrat vs. Republican matter lets all those Republicans, who did support it and still do, off the hook. It reduces the fight to a sideline of electioneering.

The NRA has tended to place itself as an appendage of the Republican Party. The problems of that party become it's problems. That need not be the case.

tipoc
 
I don't think the range of opinions expressed in the video is that different from the range of opinions expressed by the general population, with the attendant misinformation. The interesting thing to me is that even those who support gun rights do not seem to support the NRA as an organization that protects those rights. Similar feelings are sometimes expressed by people of other races who hold less conservative views on other issues. The NRA, rightly or wrongly, is perceived by many as an extremely conservative political group. That perception seems to be due in large part to the NRA's selection of convention speakers, spokespersons, etc. who are frequently rather far to the right. That may please a certain segment, and that segment may be heavy donors, but it causes a certain amount of discomfort and loss of support among people who might support the NRA if it focused on gun rights exclusively and made an effort to be more inclusive regarding other political issues.
 
Show me the left leaning, or even so called centrist speaker willing to speak publically in favor of gun rights, beyond the meaningless platitudes "I support hunting" or "I support the 2nd Amendment".

Go ahead, find one....

If they are out there, we don't see 'em.

I know some folks who are left / liberal / progressive in some of their social views and would be considered hard core conservatives about gun rights.

SO, I know they exist. And I know that they have learned to (publically) keep their mouths firmly shut about their belief in gun rights. Because, if they don't, they get attacked, and attacked personally, for their being "traitors" to the "cause", by the rest of the group(s) that hold the same, or similar views, except for the gun rights issue.

It is a circle that feeds on itself. The NRA is seen as right wing/conservative because their speakers generally are, and their speakers generally are because no left wing/progressive that supports gun rights dares come forward in public.

Anyone who sends in their application and pays the dues is an NRA member. There is NO political litmus test. Even a hard core anti-gunner can be a member. True, they won't find many friends, but they can be a member. The organization is open to all. And all who join do so by choice.
 
I like this video because the opinions expressed are not, for the most part, anti gun. The woman who really likes shooting because of the power she feels while shooting and thinking of it makes her smile, for example. The objection to the NRA is political.

Some decades back the NRA tied itself to the Republican Party. Just about the same time the Democratic Party decided it could get electoral mileage by claiming that anti-gun laws would fight crime and mayhem. These gun laws in various ways are used most heavily against working class folk, especially those with darker skin tones, on a massive scale. Part of the reason so many people are in prison for longer periods these days. The Republican Party does not deal with this too much though, neither do liberals.

They both use the issue of gun rights to gain electoral advantage one over the other.

The Democrats do have a litmus test. For someone to get the backing of the machine and the money that's available, they have to walk the walk.

There are other gun rights organizations beside the NRA though. None as large, none as well known.

The video shows in a sharp way the opinions not just of the Black Americans in the video but of many Americans of diverse backgrounds. They want to defend the 2nd Amendment but they don't see someone representing their opinion.

tipoc
 
The NRA supports an individual's right to own and carry guns. It is not a wing of the Republican arm. The problem is finding even one Democrat politician who is a staunch supporter of an individual's right to own guns - including "assault weapons", machine guns, silencers, AR's AK's and handguns with capacities over 15 rounds. If the Democrats want to walk lockstep on imposing their "reasonable restrictions" (which are anything but reasonable), then the NRA is going to have a hard time throwing campaign dollars at them. Face it, the NRA never shut the door on Democrats; the Democrats have shut the door on the NRA and gun owners.

Here's some headlines as proof:

Veteran Machine Gun Amnesty Period Gets No Support From Washington Democrats. Veterans are losing their property or being labeled criminals because of an antiquated rule.

Obama Administration attacks NFA Trusts

Harry Reid’s S 649 bill, threatens to shut down gun shows and face to face transactions, requiring a background check for every firearms sale.

REID: In the 1920s, organized crime was committing murders with machine guns. So Congress dramatically limited the sale and transfer of machine guns. As a result, machine guns all but disappeared from the streets. We can and should take the same common-sense approach to safeguard Americans from modern weapons of war. That is why I will vote for Senator Dianne Feinstein’s assault weapons ban –
 
Last edited:
We don't do Red/Blue or R/D political debates here. There are Democrats who support the 2A and Republicans who don't. While there might be some lean to one side of the aisle on the issue, it's not as cut-and-dried as many would think.

It's also off topic for this thread.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top