Birthday Gift Handgun

Yup. Kind of surprised the dealer allowed it.

Since it was a gift, the rules say you should have filled out the form as the buyer.
 
I never agreed with the reasoning the Govt uses over the "strawman" purchase issue. I don't see why they would care where the money comes from, what I consider important is who winds up with the gun.

They care about where the money comes from, and I think that is a trap.

I know what the law is, and do obey the law, I just think they should have chosen a different way to go about it.
 
The presumption (which can, of course, be incorrect as it was in this case) is that the person who puts up the money will ultimately end up with the gun, regardless of what is said or claimed at the time of purchase.

It's a reasonable presumption, but not one that is 100% accurate.
 
JohnKSa said:
The presumption (which can, of course, be incorrect as it was in this case) is that the person who puts up the money will ultimately end up with the gun, regardless of what is said or claimed at the time of purchase.

It's a reasonable presumption, but not one that is 100% accurate.
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And the sticky wicket is especially severe for the person who signs the 4473. In the last instance, the son filled out the 4473 and I'm sure he checked the box that said he was the actual purchaser of the firearm. But ... he wasn't. His father paid for it, so his father was the actual purchaser.

I believe making a false statement on the 4473 is considered a felony (ask Hunter Biden how that's working out), so by giving the son a birthday gift the father inadvertently made his son an unconvicted felon. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but, under the law, that IS the situation.
 
I bought a Glock for my dad's birthday. Told the FFL up front what the story was in order to make sure it was legal. They had no problem with it. I relied on their expertise and their unwillingness to risk their license.

Here's a weird one. I bought a rifle, which I ordered online and picked up in person. When I got it home, AFTER the background check, I realized I had blown it. I had ordered a left-handed gun.

Took it back to the store, and even though they had processed the paperwork for a left-handed gun, they took it back and gave me another gun. Can't recall whether there was a second 4473. I assume there was. I was very happy, because otherwise I would have taken a loss on Gunbroker.

I think maybe their big concern was the possibility they would have to sell the gun as used.
 
Swifty Morgan said:
I bought a Glock for my dad's birthday. Told the FFL up front what the story was in order to make sure it was legal. They had no problem with it. I relied on their expertise and their unwillingness to risk their license.

Here's a weird one. I bought a rifle, which I ordered online and picked up in person. When I got it home, AFTER the background check, I realized I had blown it. I had ordered a left-handed gun.

Took it back to the store, and even though they had processed the paperwork for a left-handed gun, they took it back and gave me another gun. Can't recall whether there was a second 4473. I assume there was. I was very happy, because otherwise I would have taken a loss on Gunbroker.

I think maybe their big concern was the possibility they would have to sell the gun as used.
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I don't think it is kosher they gave you another gun. That would screw up their bound book. Big problem if the ATF audit spots the inconsistency.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Could be worse. I could have been smoking crack when I bought it.

They probably worked it out so it was legal. I don't know the details.
 
Not really worried. The concern appeared to be about store policy, not federal law. There are a few retailers who take guns back, and they are not hiding it.

I had a strange situation in which a store sent a bad gun in for warranty work for me, and the manufacturer kept it. The manufacturer itself sent a replacement, and there was another NICS check but no checkout, because I didn't pay anything.

If you're concerned, edit your post quoting me.
 
I wasn't involved in that transaction, so I'm good. Thanks.

Perhaps there was simple "gun swapping" entry the FFL can do to make their bound book consistent with their inventory. I am just not aware of.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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Swifty Morgan

Took it back to the store, and even though they had processed the paperwork for a left-handed gun, they took it back and gave me another gun. Can't recall whether there was a second 4473. I assume there was.....
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There should have been another 4473/NICS. Once the transaction was complete and the dealer has signed a dated the 4473, he cannot add or remove firearms from that form.

See: Additional firearms purchased by the same transferee/buyer may not be added to the Form 4473 after the transferor/seller has signed and dated the form.
 
tangolima

I don't think it is kosher they gave you another gun. That would screw up their bound book. Big problem if the ATF audit spots the inconsistency.
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There's nothing illegal about it....as long as the bound book shows the actual disposition of the original LH rifle, the reacquisition of that rifle, then the disposition of the RH rifle.

ATF will wig out if there is no 4473/NICS showing the second rifle.
 
It's nice to be cared about.

In order for the feds to go after the seller, they would probably want some evidence a crime was committed, and exchanging guns with proper NICS checks is not a crime.

I think they have their hands full with people like Larry Vickers and the kids who sell Glock switches at middle schools.
 
dogtown tom said:
There's nothing illegal about it....as long as the bound book shows the actual disposition of the original LH rifle, the reacquisition of that rifle, then the disposition of the RH rifle.



ATF will wig out if there is no 4473/NICS showing the second rifle.
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That's what I meant. The book would need to somehow shows the swapping. If the book says LH123 has gone to Mr. Swifty, but they found it in the safe. And RH456 should be in inventory but it is nowhere to be found. It would be an inconsistency. At least the FFL would have a lot of explanation to do. They can't just swap the guns casually without paper trail.

It doesn't really have to be to the level of committing crime. The FFL needs to follow regulations to conduct business. Their license may be in jeopardy if they don't.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
All I can say is that this wasn't some guy dealing out of his car trunk, nor was it an activist shop that also sold Lightning Links. It was a very respected retailer.

I actually did a transfer with a guy working out of his car trunk once, so pardon me for broad-brushing the car trunk guys. He received a K31 for me. Showed up with the wrong box, open, and somehow the magazine serial number no longer matched the gun. He had also shaved his head. The seller was not happy, but they made it right.

Don't buy a K31, by the way.
 
Swifty Morgan All I can say is that this wasn't some guy dealing out of his car trunk, nor was it an activist shop that also sold Lightning Links. It was a very respected retailer.

I actually did a transfer with a guy working out of his car trunk once, so pardon me for broad-brushing the car trunk guys. He received a K31 for me. Showed up with the wrong box, open, and somehow the magazine serial number no longer matched the gun. He had also shaved his head. The seller was not happy, but they made it right.
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That there.......is a felony.
ATF and federal law are VERY clear, an FFLm can only conduct bsiness at ywo locations.
1. his licensed premises.
2. a gun show or special event devoted to hunting, shooting, etc (like a DU banquet)

See:
§ 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.

(a) (1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of § 478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.

(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.

(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.

(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.

[T.D. ATF-270, 53 FR 10498, Mar. 31, 1988, as amended by T.D. ATF-401, 63 FR 35523, June 30, 1998]
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I was about to say the same thing.

My first gun was processed through a real small, but fixed, outfit. Guy just subletted a 8'x6' space inside loading gate of an auto repair shop. A safe and a small glass display case, he was in business. I went there out of desperation, as all the shops in town stuck me up. It was the early years of Internet sales. They changed mind after I placed the order, claiming it would undercut their business.

I have one k31 and one M1911. Superb rifles from Switzerland.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
I thought the K31 was fun until the cheap ammo vanished forever. Now it's just a rifle with so-so accuracy, which is too expensive to shoot.

I see guys out there saying the K31 is a 1/2-MOA gun with GP11, because they once shot a small three-shot group. If you can't do 20-round groups, it's not a 1/2-MOA gun. I can shoot three-shot 1/2" groups with a .22 pistol if I go through enough ammo.

I wasn't too thrilled with the difficulty of mounting a scope, either.
Every gun will eventually shoot a small group.
 
It is a military surplus, not supposed to be sub-moa. Better than 2 moa 10-shot group with iron sight no problem. Mounting scope is iffy but quite doable. I handload for it.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Rifles, including Swiss military surplus, are not the topic of this thread.

Please review the subforum rules and follow them.
 
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