Birdshot as home defense round

K

Kevan

New member
It seems that every time the shotgun as home defense weapon comes up on other forums, there are scads of folks who say that you should be using birdshot. I understand the logic behind it, but I'm not sure it holds water. The logic is that birdshot does not overpenetrate and is, ergo, safer to adjacent dwellings. The most common shot suggested is #6, though I have seen #2 suggested a few times. A lot of folks stick to 00 buck because their issue is to choose first what will drop the attacker right off the bat. There are questions regarding the penetration ability of birdshot and, hence, its ability to be effective in stopping an attacker.


Now, I did some little tests of my own with #2 birdshot loads and 00 buck loads. The #2 birdshot was Winchester 12 gauge, 2 3/4", Double X Magnums loaded with 1 1/2 ounces of #2 copper-plated birdshot. The 00 buck was Sellier & Bellot 12 gauge, 2 3/4" loaded with 1 1/4 ounces of 00 buck. Yeah, I know, using the magnum copper-plated shot adds a new variable, but, hey, it was free. :) Anyway, what I discovered was that the #2 birdshot penetrated thicker gauge sheet metal where the 00 buck merely dented it. The #2 birdshot actually bowled over a large 5 gallon metal container whle the 00 buck just pushed it back some. The #2 birdshot penetrated deeper into wood than the 00 buck also. The recoil from the #2 was a lot stouter than the 00 buck. (Of course, it was a "magnum" round, after all.) But this leaves one with the question: Is birdshot indeed less penetrative at close range than buckshot? Or does the copper-plating of the birdshot, size, and whether or not the load is a "magnum" play a part in that? Truth be known, it almost appears that the #2 copper-plated shot I used appears to be more effective than buckshot in terms of power. What am I missing here? Can anyone elaborate on different effectiveness of shot sizes and what one can expect regarding defensive capabilities?

And where can I get a chart that shows the actual sizes of each shot size?
 
Well I wonder too. I recently bought some 3" magnum #2 steel shot loads. I know that at long range they carry less energy due to lighter weight, but what about close in? Soft armor penetration? Could be interesting.
 
the czech made 12ga 00B is one of the lowest quality and performance ammo.

Do you have distance and gun model used?

And where can I get a chart that shows the actual sizes of each shot size?
Click to expand...

The remington and winchester web sites has the typical avg shot size for buck thru bird. I would check their first or do a general search on google.
 
This was fired out of a Winchester 1300 Defender at a distance of about 20 feet. The Sellier & Bellot buck rounds have never had a misfire, so as far as quality, I cannot complain. My issue with them is that the pellets are "lumpy" and so I question their flight. Of course, it is said that pellets deform out of the barrel anyway.
 
Kevan, as I recall, you mentioned being in an apartment or similar type structure, right?

I don't have any proof to back this up, but supposedly the best compromise between 00 Buck and bird shot is to go with #4.

Is birdshot less penetrative than buck at close range? That depends on the range. More than likely, inside of two yards, both are going to perform in a similar manner as slugs as they will not have separated or not separated much from the shot cup.

As far as stopping power, where buckshot has an advantage is that each pellet is heavier and hence carries with it more momentum and therefore should give better penetration. Also, the 9 pellets actually suffer less from air resistence because of an overall reduced surface area compared to how many ever hundred little BBs of bird shot.

If 20 feet is the greatest distance you have to shoot within your dwelling, it may very well be that bird shot may be more than sufficient for your needs, but definitely as distance increases after some point (7 yards? 10 yards?), bird shot will become less and less effective compared to 00 Buck. Inside a certain distance, such as 2 yards, you are just going to get one great big nasty hole in the bad guy. At 2 yards, you are going to get 100% penetration of buckshot or birdshot through 2 layers of dry wall.

Whatever you decide on, take the time and do pattern testing to know just how much spread you will have at any given distance for a given load of a given brand's shot. For example, out of my Rem 870 Marine Magnum, I patterned the Federal's 00 Buck Tactical load at three distances. At 5 yards, the pattern was fist-sized, ~3" diameter. At 10 yards, the pattern had a roughly 6" diameter circle. At 15 yards, the pattern was approximately 9" across at its greatest diameters, but more square than circular in pattern. The pattern grew by one inch for each five feet of distance. The greatest interior distance in my home is roughly 54 feet. Assuming my back was to the wall, subtract the length of the gun and the absolute greatest distance would be 51 feet and so I can expect the pattern to be roughly 10".

I also patterned bird shot, but did not save the results. As I recall, the spread was rougly 40" at 15 yards.
 
I have seen the results of a 20-gage birdshot wound at about 30 feet. The victim (of a robbery) was hit square in the back as he fled from a cash register. After being hit, he continued to run out of the restaurant. He was not stopped at all. He was up and around when I arrived. I am not sure what size bird shot was used.

The only other birdshot incidents I have seen involve two point blank shots to the head (suicides). Those were deadly, but the projectiles remained inside the body.

I carry only 00 buck and larger for home defense. Not to say bird shot is wrong, it just doesn’t suit my needs. I am not worried with over penetration where I live.
 
I just picked up a new black beauty of a 12 gauge Mossberg 500A with 18.5" barrel. While in the store I found some Federal Premium "Personal Defense" Shotgun shells in 12 gauge, 2 3/4", 3 dram eq., 1 1/4 oz. of #2 shot. They're stated muzzle velocity is 1140 fps. My new Mossberg is on home defense duty and stoked with them right now.

Seems like they chose #2 as a nice medium between birdshot and buckshot. They are billing the shells as "Low Recoil" which I appreciate, but 3 dr. eq. seems like it would create about moderate, not light recoil. I guess heavy recoil would have been something like 3 1/2 or MAX dr. eq. But what is the approx. dram equivalent of MAX anyway?

Remington's website has an awesome shotgun basics online interactive course where all the shot sizes are shown and compared.

http://www.remington.com/safety/shotgunbasics.htm
 
Part of the advantage of using a shotgun for close quarter crisis management is the ability to tailor the load to the mission.

While I see people people talk about fist sized groups at 5 yards, they're talking about extreme spread. Many of the pellets are still in the wad and will hit as a semi solid mass with great effect. And that's true for 000 or 9 birdshot.

Once the pellets spread a bit,birdshot is not the tactical equivalent of buck. With the more than needed energy of a shotgun shell, this isn't crucial until the range opens up to more than say (SEWAG) 10 yards. After 10 yards, THEN buck moves to the fore.Buck really shines up to 25 yards or so.
 
I live in an apartment and keep #5 shot in my 870. Ranges are rather limited. Longest possible shot is maybe 20 feet. Got neighbors right through the walls.

Trying to buy a house though. Fingers crossed. :) Then I'll switch to buckshot.
 
Shot sizes/pictures online here
http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html

Spent Sat and Sun at a tactical shotgun course (#2 for me) and was surprised to hear one particular statistic from the instructor who is a LEO, master firearms instructor, and college shotgun champ:

Nobody can find any documented court case that involved a liability lawsuit resulting from overpenetration THAT FOLLOWED A HIT... lots of lawsuits from the MISSES but none from the HITS.

He offered this for consideration:

If you live in cold weather climates or biker territory or where ever leather jackets and heavy coats are worn by the bad guys, birdshot, even #2, might not even piss them off.

Buckshot might work but depending on the distance and your pattern, you might have a bunch of stray pellets flying past the BG (think of these as potential liability projectiles).

Slugs (his recommendation) will almost always stop the BG, will rarely go all the way thru somebody and have enough ooomph left to go thru drywall and then do much damage, and do not have peripheral stry pellets causing potential liability problems.

Course, you gotta be confident about your ability to hit what you aim at to sign up for this approach.

Personally, I changed my under-the-bed load from Fed Personal Defense #2 bird, to a load that has the first two rounds as 00 Buck, followed by four slugs. Guess I'm a bit uncertain about 00 buck vs slugs so this is my compromise. YMMV.

--Bruce.
 
I'm in the same boat as Correia. I stoke my Benelli with 7 1/2 though. Once I gradamatate and get that castle in the mountains I can switch to 00.
 
will rarely go all the way thru somebody and have enough ooomph left to go thru drywall and then do much damage,
Click to expand...

I highly doubt that. Theirs numerous testing done where shotgun slugs ( foster type ) penetrated 2 plus car doors and kept going. A 1oz piece of lead at 1500-1800fps is alot of horse power. I would think 10 out 10 people shot with a typical slug would definetely have full penetration plus a lot of energy leftover.

The best solution would be something like this for thoose that need a slug of some type;

http://www.lepsa.org/Quik-Shok.htm
 
Another Appartment Dweller

I also live in an appartment, my longest shot is about 9 yards. I use an old 20ga auto, and I'm limited to 2.75 inch shells. For the longest time, I used the bulk target loads that Wal-mart sold as my home defence loads. I never once felt undergunned. Now, I've upgraded to Number 4 Buck, and I am pretty sure that would work okay too.
 
wimpy slugs?

lockandrock is right. While my experience concerning slug penetration on felons is limited (read non-existant) I do know what 12 gauge slugs do and how they react when they come in contact with deer. I have never recovered a shotgun slug from a deer and have never heard of anyone else doing so either. Penetration on soft targets is extreme. That's not to say that they won't make an excellent choice for defense, but I wouldn't count on them to remain inside the body even with the most solid hit.
 
I don't believe that slugs won't overpenetrate. That's impossible. Plus, the benefit of the shotgun is the massive wound caused by multiple projectiles. If, indoors, you need just big "hunk-o-lead", then a .45/70 loaded with Buffalo Bore 500 grainers would be the same. Not to say slugs don't have value, because they do---under conditions that warrant them which, I daresay, is not indoors. Indoors, one should exploit the advantage the shotgun has in the number of .25 to .36 caliber projectiles it can place on target at once.
 
Aguila Mini shells?

I haven't had a chance to try these in my Defender 1300 yet, but I like the idea of being able to stoke it with 13 rds & have the side saddle carrier with the remaining rounds from a 20-rd. box. Loading the side saddle & gun to full capacity, it'll carry 23 rds. total.

Seven #4 buck + four #1 buck and it looks like it won't overpenetrate. Might be good for apartment dwellers; be sure to shoot for the head, neck AND chest! Won't cycle through semi-autos, however, good for pump guns, from those who use it have told me.
 
I've had the lovely experience of seeing 3 shotgun traumas in my career. Two with birdshot, one with 00. One of the birdshots was a DOA, direct hit to the chest from about 10ft, looked like someone stuck a chainsaw thru him. The other birdshot was hit in the lower abdomen from about 5yds. Massive damage to liver, left kidney and bowel. He died of septis after several weeks. He was also the only self defense shooting, was incapacitated immediately after being hit. The guy hit with the 00 ( an asian gang banger caught on the hispanic side of town)was also hit in the lower abdomen and he is still with us. However he has found Jesus and if I'm not mistaken still poops in a baggie. At close range, for my money an ounce of lead is an ounce of lead.
 
C, it's the old geese and duck load. IIRC, each pellet is around .14 caliber. Those loads are getting hard to find, other than the Federal HD load. There was also a "BB" load which ran about 18 caliber. I haven't seen those for years.
 
There is a very interesting article by the International Wound Ballistics Association and they suggest #1 buckshot. They say in ballistics tests, it offers the best compromise between adequate penetration and overpenetration dangers. According to them, it actually creates a more lethal wound possibility than 00 buck. Number 1 buck from the Federal Classic 2 3/4" shell gves you 16 pellets of .30 caliber (7.62mm) diameter. in the Federal shotshell, they are in a shot cup and also buffered. I went out and bought some #1 buck (it's not real easy to find, by the way, in some places) and I'm going to pattern it and see how it works. The IWBA is pretty trustworthy information. I also picked up some Federal 0 buck just to see how it stacks up. And I got some Winchester #4 and 00 buck also. I'm going to pattern them all at what would be in-my-house ranges and see how each looks. Then I'll try my ersatz penetration tests just for fun.

The #2 birdshot you can usually find at places that cater to varmint hunters. The Winchester XX magnum copper-plated #2 will give your shoulder a wallop. But if you're at a place where there is a lot of old junk laying around to shoot at, it's a lot of fun. It blows sh*t to pieces!! You won't hardly believe it! That's probably one reason Federal chose it as one of their "personal defense" offerings. I think the #2 birdshot is close to what used to be called "swan shot" in days of old.

You gotta love shotguns. So much versatility in one gun!
 
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