big spreads in my 45-70 loads

I did not notice any unburnt powder kernels. It was the dirtiest rifle I've ever cleaned though. I ran dozens of patches with M-Pro7 on a wire brush down the barrel, and kept coming up up dirty. Never remember having to clean a barrel this much, as I always clean each time I shoot.

Mag primers - I guess I would consider switching to them, but I'll first try loading these hotter, as I can stand the kick ok - more of a shotgun type shove, and I use a big shoulder pad (Couldn't shoot 30 rounds from a bench without it).

Tilting the barrel up or down before firing should tell me if there's any need to add fluff to keep the charge back in place. I'll give that a try and report back.
 
Those numbers sure seem low speed to me for a 300 grain pill. Those look more akin to 405 grain hard cast lead speeds. I'm thinking you're not running hot enough to be consistent.
 
k2 man said:
The bulge in the brass from the bullet seating - some cartridges are uniform all the way around, some are not. Interesting. I would think this doesn't significantly affect accuracy - or does it?

10-15% unburned powder? Wow, that sounds like a lot. If I increased the powder charge, will I have even more unburned powder?
Click to expand...

Whether or not the non-uniformity of the bulge affects accuracy depends on the degree and the cause. A small amount is probably just that the case walls are a thousandth or two thinner on one side than the other, and the thinner side stretches more easily. A larger amount is probably because the bullet didn't seat squarely into the case. The mismatch in its shape and the shape of the seater ram contribute to this. If you start the bullets in straight, then they tend to stay straight, regardless of exact expander profile. You can make that happen by using a Lyman M type expander die, which creates a little step in the case mouth that you can set your bullet base squarely into, so it has no tilt on its way into the seating die. The Redding expanders have that profile, too.

In a target rifle with jacketed bullets, groups can be opened up on the order of one moa because of bullet tilt. This occurs because a pointed rifle bullet has its center of gravity out in front of the center of the bullet's full groove diameter bearing surface. The tilt is centered around the bearing surface, so that throws the center of gravity to the side of the bore axis, causing it to spiral down the bore on firing. That spiraling CG is like a weight tied to a string and swung around the bore axis, so when the bullet exits the muzzle, it's like letting go of the string, and the bullet moves off tangent to circle it was spinning in. That motion is small, but it constitutes enough drift to move the bullet a half moa off the target by the time it has traveled a couple of hundred yards. With lead bullets it's less easy to tell how much drift you'll get from this. They are softer and will swage into the bore with more tilt than a harder jacketed bullet does (usually around three to five thousandths of tilt at most, depending on the bullet geometry), but the CG isn't as far forward of the center of the bearing surface in most more blunt lead bullet designs. So it could go either way. I don't have numbers for the lead, but my personal experience suggests they can be made to fly further of course by this than a jacketed bullet can.

The unburned powder will decrease some with higher pressure. So will all the soot you are cleaning out. You will still have some, though. The way I handle heavy carbon powder residue is usually with Gunzilla. I use a pump sprayer to get enough flowing down the bore to coat it. Then let it sit overnight and patch it out the next day. At that point there won't be much left. Boretech C4 is another good product for this purpose.
 
Thanks Unclenick. The bulge in some of the jackets under the bullets are definitely one sided. That is, there is no bulge on one side of the jacket, and 180 degrees opposite is the maximum. I've ordered a Lymann M expander die and will see if that fixes the problem.

Also just ordered some Gunzilla. Always looking for easier cleaning!
 
Die sets for straight wall cases like the .45-70 normally come with a flaring die like an M die. Check to see if you might already have one.
 
I have a Hornady Custom Die set. I did not see any "step" in the case mouth on my cases, so I'd say the Hornady is different than the Lymann M expander.

If the bullet tilt can cause the bullet to spiral off center, I want to eliminate as much bullet tilt as possible. I know when I set bullets on the cases, they are always setting crooked. I don't put enough flare in my cases to have them set in at much depth (trying to not stretch out my brass to hopefully give it a longer life).

I'm wondering if my 44 magnum pistol loads have the same issue? I have a Dillon Progressive Carbide Die Set for them.
 
Yes, not getting enough flare on the case mouths for straight seating. Die sets for straight wall cases normally consist of three dies, the third being the neck flaring die. Double check what you have. If only two dies, need an M die for sure.
 
I do have the third die that is a flaring die. I have always set them to get just enough flare so that the brass doesn't shave lead and the mouth is larger diameter than the bullet, but no more. Maybe the Hornady die will be sufficient, but I ordered the M die. I'll spend $20 for a better tool any day. I wish there was more information on the dies - a better cutaway drawing or more explanation of how they work. But I guess the marketing guys want us to figure it out ourselves - we buy more stuff that way!
 
While waiting for the M die, try a little more flare with the Hornady. I have to use quite a bit with mine to keep the bullet shearing at bay and straight seating. M dies can be obtained separately for most any bottle neck cartridge when cast bullets are being used.
 
It seems like a lot of stretch on the brass to get a bigger flare. Maybe it looks that way because of the caliber. Is annealing the brass recommended for the 45-70?
 
Yes it results in quite a bit of stretch with more flare but those huge cases can take it. I've not heard of annealing .45-70s, and haven't done so, but they can split at the necks so annealing could be in order. I've used mostly Starline and Remington brass for best results. Winchester it seems not quite as good.
 
About half of them have the M profile, but RCBS, Dillon and Lee don't. Redding does and I think, from photos, that Hornady does, though I don't happen to own any Hornady dies. You are looking to form a straight sided step in the case mouth, as shown below.

Case%20Flare%20Style%20showing%20tilt_zpspxacapfz.gif


I had the asymmetric bulge in .45 Auto from my Dillon Square Deal. In this machine the expander profile is cut into the powder drop and actuator tube. I turned my own drop tube on the lathe with the Lyman style profile so I could set the bullets straight upright and the bullet base was then mirrored evenly all around. I also turned an H&G 68 profile seating ram for a friend's Dillon 1050, and that got about the same result.
 
My Hornady die does not give me the straight sided step. I will wait until I get the M die before reloading any more. I am trying to finish up a work project so I can get to the range today to see if moving the chrono further away will get more consistent results. I still need to get a sight on the front that I can see.

I thought more about what you wrote Unclenick. I used a Dillon 550B press, and full length resized the new Starline cases, but I didn't use the powder drop (weighted and manually loaded each charge) so my brass never saw the powder funnel. The Dillon powder funnel for the 45-70 measures .4540" - just .0053" under the coated Mo. Bullets. I think the powder funnel would have gave me a better bullet seating. Agree? Would the powder funnel do as good of a job as the M die?
 
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Good to know. Their computer graphic appears to show a thin line where a step would be, but it also could just be where the bullet shaped ogive radius ends.

I think you'll like what the M-die does. A good number of people shooting bottleneck rifle cartridges have gone over to them to improve finished cartridge concentricity without investing in the Redding seater. However, the combination is what has the most effect, according to my concentricity gauge.

Where the Dillon funnel might do better is greater grip on the bullet by the case neck. That could improve velocity spread. It just won't do anything for the bullet straightness.
 
My knowledge of reloading is expanding.... what fun!

I just checked on the Redding seating dies - there are two, a competition model for $95 and a vanilla for $42. Reading the description, the competition model does claim to solve the concentricity problem. It makes sense. Is the competition model the one you're referring to Unclenick?
 
Now that we are aware you are using a 550 but not the powder system, and apparently flaring just minimally, I would venture to say that the combination definitely contributed to the lack of bullet straightness. When you get the M die, do you intend to set it up within the 550 toolhead? I have used an M die with over a dozen cartridges, always with a single stage press however, never feeling that one needed to be incorporated with the 550 toolhead. However if I thought one would be beneficial, I would try it like this: Sizing die of course at station one, the M die at station two, the powder system at station three adjusted not to result in additional flare, and bullet seating of course at station four. It seems there is so little bullet clearance within the seating die that bullets have to be guided in with the fingers which results in next to perfect bullet alignment.
 
Yes, I'm going to put the M die in the 550B - and I'm not going to drop powder as I weigh each charge, and just using them all as single stations. I have noticed that if I am running it in progressive mode, I'll get different seating depths by several thousandths if I am running a single cartridge around vs running in full progressive. This has always upset me - I should call Dillon and see if there's something wrong with my press.
 
Yes I recommend running in single mode; cycle one round through to completion before starting the next. I do that with the .45-70 and a few others. Of course on the 550 its much more efficient than running on a single stage press.
 
k2man:
To follow up on your post #35, it turns out I have the Redding .45-70 die set that was listed for about $53 in Midway catalog #35. I'm assuming it is the vanilla version and the flaring die does have the straight wall step section. The competition model was much more expensive and I'm sure I didn't get it. The seating die does do a great job with bullet alignment. Actually I hadn't previously paid any attention to the straight step. So as you put it, fun to keep learning.
 
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