Big game (Elk, Deer) with subsonic ammo?
- Thread starter CCCLVII
- Start date
That bullet you posted would be illegal in most states for big game hunting. I'm pretty sure that is a fmj, non expanding bullets are usually banned for hunting large game. Plus I think you should use an expanding bullet for all big game hunting in North America.
Don't get me wrong I don't always agree with what is stated in the rule book but I do follow the rules. I do think some of Colorado's hunting regulations need updated especially the bullet weights now that there are premium mono metal bullets on the market, and to allow the use of sub 70 grain bullets for deer, pronghorn, and black bear. Obeying the rules keeps me hunting and enjoying the freedom to do so. Just make sure you check the regulations for the state you'll be hunting in so you don't get on trouble, would have helped Uncle Ted a couple of times now. Plus even though Idaho allows hunting with suppressors I think the have a ban on rifles over a certain weight to keep people from hunting with the .50 BMG.
Don't get me wrong I don't always agree with what is stated in the rule book but I do follow the rules. I do think some of Colorado's hunting regulations need updated especially the bullet weights now that there are premium mono metal bullets on the market, and to allow the use of sub 70 grain bullets for deer, pronghorn, and black bear. Obeying the rules keeps me hunting and enjoying the freedom to do so. Just make sure you check the regulations for the state you'll be hunting in so you don't get on trouble, would have helped Uncle Ted a couple of times now. Plus even though Idaho allows hunting with suppressors I think the have a ban on rifles over a certain weight to keep people from hunting with the .50 BMG.
OK
Yes. I understand that. The point of the picture was to show that there is an affordable, easy to put together cartridge for what the OP specified.
The trick, though, is to find a legal .50 cal bullet that will do a humane job and work at 900 fps.
I am wondering if there is a mold available that would cast a soft lead bullet with enough weight and a high enough BC so that it retains velocity and energy the way that the BMG boattails do,
I wonder about the 600 and 700 grainers that Rick Gibson used to sell for the 500 S&W. They were cast lead. \
Perhaps the suggestion to use a rifle chambered for the 500 Smith along with very heavy lead bullets is an avenue to pursue.
Pete
Yes. I understand that. The point of the picture was to show that there is an affordable, easy to put together cartridge for what the OP specified.
The trick, though, is to find a legal .50 cal bullet that will do a humane job and work at 900 fps.
I am wondering if there is a mold available that would cast a soft lead bullet with enough weight and a high enough BC so that it retains velocity and energy the way that the BMG boattails do,
I wonder about the 600 and 700 grainers that Rick Gibson used to sell for the 500 S&W. They were cast lead. \
Perhaps the suggestion to use a rifle chambered for the 500 Smith along with very heavy lead bullets is an avenue to pursue.
Pete
Last edited:
I don't care about the cost, but I think you have a sweet set up with your Encore there. When you start talking about .50 cal suppressors cheap goes out the window. Unless your are just that wealthy that it doesn't matter to you what a suppressor costs.
Sure you can get cast bullets as heavy as 700 grains Montana Bullet Works has them ready to go. Plus they tell you what mould the use so once you find the bullet that works you know which mould to buy and who to get it from. But going cast you loose all the good BC advantage of the jacketed bullet. Which again will make the OP have to stick with normal black powder or shotgun ranges where shots over 150 yards will be long range shots. Plus if you run cast bullets you'll need a twist that won't allow jacketed bullets, which would make it a very specialized barrel.
You could have a custom mould made that would give you higher BC's but there are other considerations. The problem with lead bullets that aren't flat bases with a long bearing surface is that they don't always obiturate to the bore and the hot gases blow by and that really screws things up. The 750 grain A-Max might work but I think your best bet would be a custom bullet with a half jacket and exposed lead tip especially if we are talking strictly single shot rifles. I wonder if Corbin could make a set of bullet making dies like that?
I don't own a .50 cal rifle that shoots jacketed bullets, so I really don't know what is available that would work at sub sonic speeds either.
That would be a simple way to go for sure.
I really don't think this is much of a stunt as some other people suggested in the earlier postings. People have been killing elk with subsonic bullets out of Muzzle loaders for 100's of years. I'm just not sure it is really worth pursuing using a subsonic suppressed cartridge for elk hunting.
Last edited:
When I said 500 grain I was thinking .458 caliber.
at 1050 fps at the muzzle this bullet http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.458-500-gr-RN/ has 1224 FPE. At 100 yards it has 1060 FPE. At 150 yards it has 1000 FPE.
so it would pass the minimum energy at 100 yards and technically is an expanding bullet through I doubt it would expand at that speed.
While I am not saying it is the best option for hunting I do admire the OP for trying some thing new to him. I am suppressing a 45/70 Marlin but I still plan to use the supersonic ammo for hunting and just use subsonic ammo for plinking.
If people always used the best weapon for hunting there would be no such thing as Archery hunting, Hand gun hunting or black powder hunting. Fortunately there are people out there willing to try new (or old and ineffective) things.
I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt that had and occasionally hunted with a Suppressed Winchester 1894 (I believe in 30-30)
But I also agree with the quoted text. A muzzle loader would be a great option. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around a suppressed muzzle loader.
That would work! But a bullet that wouldn't expand would be the problem. A non expanding bullet isn't going to result in a quick kill unless it is a CNS shot. Realistically this would only be 100-200 yard shot at the maximum because of what he is attempting to do anything beyond that the performance would be to iffy to try ethically.
BC
This idea has me very interested.
Thanks for the link to Montana Bullet......they sell a 625 grain PP'd bullet of pure lead that shows great promise for a project like this. If it has a BC at .360 or so, then, launched at 950fps, it would have over 1000 ft.lbs remaining at 200 yards and one could be reasonably sure of some expansion/deformation.
In addition, more $ but..... Woodleigh offers a 580 grain RNSN that could go at 1050 fps and work also.
Pete
This idea has me very interested.
Thanks for the link to Montana Bullet......they sell a 625 grain PP'd bullet of pure lead that shows great promise for a project like this. If it has a BC at .360 or so, then, launched at 950fps, it would have over 1000 ft.lbs remaining at 200 yards and one could be reasonably sure of some expansion/deformation.
In addition, more $ but..... Woodleigh offers a 580 grain RNSN that could go at 1050 fps and work also.
Pete
I wouldn't get hung up on energy numbers, I don't know of any other state than CO that has them in their regs. Plus they really only apply to factory ammunition so if your shooting a wildcat with no factory offerings then I don't think the energy requirements apply. I'm a big believer in shot placement trumps all other numbers as long as those other numbers provide for adequate penetration and expansion of the bullet.
The Colorado reg reads 1000 ft-lbs of energy at 100 yards as rated by manufacturer.
I occasionally hunt hogs at night on my property with supressed AR-15 rifle.
One thing you have deal with when using supressed weapon is the length. Even a AR Carbine with 16" barrel starts to get really long with a supressor on it. Carrying a rifles with supressor is really long and it catches on every branch out there. Now I only use the supressor on my SBR as it makes it managable out there.
One thing you have deal with when using supressed weapon is the length. Even a AR Carbine with 16" barrel starts to get really long with a supressor on it. Carrying a rifles with supressor is really long and it catches on every branch out there. Now I only use the supressor on my SBR as it makes it managable out there.
steveracer
New member
Plenty of these animals have been killed with worse
Muzzle loaders in .50, the older 45/70 loads were under 1100 FPS. People kill them with ARROWS!!!
I would get a .45/70 and either load it to black powder levels or buy slower ammo. It should work just fine.
Of course, this means kinda close up, but whatever.
Muzzle loaders in .50, the older 45/70 loads were under 1100 FPS. People kill them with ARROWS!!!
I would get a .45/70 and either load it to black powder levels or buy slower ammo. It should work just fine.
Of course, this means kinda close up, but whatever.
Hey, go for it if the shot opportunity arises and you're confident of the shot.
I get a kick out of the guys that act like there's some "rule" as to the distance of an "ethical" shot- usually seeming to be in the range of a few hundred yards.
Seemingly ignoring the facts that modern technology of laser RF's and pocket ballistic programs on PDA's make much longer shots very practical with an accurate weapon and a shooter that understands the limitations of it, and his abilities.
You seem to be well aware of the limitations of your intended game plan. Good luck, let us know what you decide on...
I get a kick out of the guys that act like there's some "rule" as to the distance of an "ethical" shot- usually seeming to be in the range of a few hundred yards.
Seemingly ignoring the facts that modern technology of laser RF's and pocket ballistic programs on PDA's make much longer shots very practical with an accurate weapon and a shooter that understands the limitations of it, and his abilities.
You seem to be well aware of the limitations of your intended game plan. Good luck, let us know what you decide on...
Sorry I have been away on business for about a week. I still am not sure what I want to use. I was thinking some thing at least 44 caliber. I would like to try some thing not super tacticool. I was think some thing more traditional looking with wood and iron sights.
I like the idea of the 50 Alaskan but I dont think I could put those pointy 50BMG bullets in a tube magazine could I? Is there a Magazine fed 50AK out there? The only ones I have ever seen is Conversions from lever actions. I guess making a single shot would be a pretty simple conversion for a decent gun smith.
I like the Idea of a suppressed lever action. The 45/70 talked about earlier sounds like a fun project. Though I guess a 50AK may prove more effective because of the larger possible bullets.
I like the idea of the 50 Alaskan but I dont think I could put those pointy 50BMG bullets in a tube magazine could I? Is there a Magazine fed 50AK out there? The only ones I have ever seen is Conversions from lever actions. I guess making a single shot would be a pretty simple conversion for a decent gun smith.
I like the Idea of a suppressed lever action. The 45/70 talked about earlier sounds like a fun project. Though I guess a 50AK may prove more effective because of the larger possible bullets.
Iron sights will not work with a suppressor. A big suppressor like that will mess with the front sight post. The only way to get around it would be to have sights on your rifle like an AR.
Pointy bullets aren't a smart idea in a tube magazine for sure. Not to mention they would probably be too long to feed from the magzine. Lever action rifles are really sensitive to case lenght. I've seen several bolt action .45-70's built of Siamese Mauser and P14 Enfields and that may work for you. If you go single shot look for a Ruger #1 to build on if you have to have a lever to operate your action.
I think if you really want to run a lever action rifle with iron sights you shouldn't mess with a suppressor. If you are willing to scope it then pick up a Marlin Guide Gun then a suppressor might be worth it.
lever guns
Lever guns in 50 AK? You bet. Magazine fed...not that I know of.
The 50 AK and its older brother the 450 AK (by Harold Johnson of Cooper's Landing in a Model 71 Winchester) are both lever friendly.
See Wild West Guns in Anchorage for Marlin Guide Gun conversions.
I have been lusting after one of their Alaskan Co-pilot take downs for years.
See:
http://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html
Pete
Lever guns in 50 AK? You bet. Magazine fed...not that I know of.
The 50 AK and its older brother the 450 AK (by Harold Johnson of Cooper's Landing in a Model 71 Winchester) are both lever friendly.
See Wild West Guns in Anchorage for Marlin Guide Gun conversions.
I have been lusting after one of their Alaskan Co-pilot take downs for years.
See:
http://wildwestguns.com/copilot.html
Pete
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
I load 540 grain hard cast in my custom Marlin 50 A.E., & they cycle fine... I'd imagine the 50 Alaskan is set up to run the heavy bullets
heavy
The 50 AK - a wildcat based on the 348 Win. case - has an OAL of 2.1". Bullet diameter is .510-.512. For comparison, the 500 S&W has a case length of 1.625"; it can be loaded with bullets up to 700 grains (cast). Diameters are different as the S&W is .500". I wonder, though, if those .500" bullets actually drop from their mold at that diameter....probably not. I'd expect that one could get loadable/shootable bullets for the 50AK using those molds or ordering them unsized.
Also, for reference, IIRC the original bullets used for the 50 AK were jacketed Truncated Cones which were made by cutting 50 BMG bullets and using the boat tail end as the slug. Makes a nice looking bullet. Using a jig for the cut helps to keep the base neat. I have done this...they work. One can, to a degree, adjust the weight by the length of the cut.
Pete
The 50 AK - a wildcat based on the 348 Win. case - has an OAL of 2.1". Bullet diameter is .510-.512. For comparison, the 500 S&W has a case length of 1.625"; it can be loaded with bullets up to 700 grains (cast). Diameters are different as the S&W is .500". I wonder, though, if those .500" bullets actually drop from their mold at that diameter....probably not. I'd expect that one could get loadable/shootable bullets for the 50AK using those molds or ordering them unsized.
Also, for reference, IIRC the original bullets used for the 50 AK were jacketed Truncated Cones which were made by cutting 50 BMG bullets and using the boat tail end as the slug. Makes a nice looking bullet. Using a jig for the cut helps to keep the base neat. I have done this...they work. One can, to a degree, adjust the weight by the length of the cut.
Pete