Bicycle Carry

[Frank Ettin]

Proving my medical condition would be as simple as rolling up my sleaves and quoting medical studies ...

No one said that it necessarily had to be difficult to do, but you will still need to show that you're at greater risk than someone without your medical condition.

It might be pretty easy to do that in some cases, and it might be harder in other cases. But it will still need to be done.

 

[Alaska444]

Dear Fiddletown, I truly don't question the ability to prove my disability. That is truly a given. Once again, the question is case law and precedent from other cases. The prior post hinted that is the case. I am simply asking for specifics on an issue that I have wondered for quite some time without any specific answer to date.

Am I at higher risk of grave bodily injury and or death from what others would take as a survivable but severe beating? Absolutely. That would not be an issue to prove whatsoever. The question I have deals with case law and historical references to specific cases where the courts recognized this in a successful self defense case.

Thank you,

Alaska444

 

[Alaska444]

I guess I will try to answer my own question on disparity of force which is what the victim of the bike attack had by multiple attackers although apparently unarmed.

Here is one case:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_77824400/?tag=content;col1

 

[Frank Ettin]

...the question is case law and precedent from other cases. The prior post hinted that is the case. I am simply asking for specifics on an issue...

The general legal principles are as pax and I have outlined. Looking for case law, especially specific to dialysis patients, would entail many hours of research. I'm not planning to do that.

 

[Alaska444]

January 26, 2012, 07:31 PM #10
pax
Staff

Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 5,748
Quote:
I often wondered if an old man, lets say, he had a bad ticker, would be required to take a Butt Whipping from an much younger, stronger guy, instead of using his hand gun to protect himself.
Kraig,

Civil law has a concept called the "eggshell skull" doctrine, which basically says an attacker takes the victim as he finds him -- that when someone commits a negligent act that leads to another person getting injured, then that person is culpable for the entire extent of the injury even if the victim had some pre existing condition that turned what should have been a minor problem into a major one.

In criminal law, a similar doctrine applies in self defense. The attacker doesn't have to know he is putting you in legitimate & reasonable fear for your life. You simply have to know it and be able to articulate your reasonable belief that (for example) someone about to punch you in the head was actually about to use deadly force against you whether he fully realized it or not. A man with a known issue such as a "bad ticker" would almost certainly find relief in such a rule.

See http://www.useofforce.us/ for a really good overview.

(Disclaimer: IANAL, simply a firearms instructor who's also an autodidact with a wickedly obsessive reading habit.)

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
Managing Editor, Concealed Carry Magazine
My personal website: Cornered Cat

Let's go back to post #10 where I entered due to the "egg shell skull" doctrine in civil courts. I am not looking for a dialysis specific case, but the issue of disability of the victim raising the level of concern over grave bodily injury or death as a disparity of force justification. I have no doubt that a single blow by fist to my dialysis access could absolutely cause grave bodily injury or death if it ruptured the access. Not an issue to prove the disability whatsoever to a court or a jury. Not my concern.

Once again, what disability related disparity of force issues are part of case law already. Is it state by state, or are there general parameters already settled case law. Going back to Pax and the egg shell skull theory, I have yet to see a direct application of that sort of thinking to any specific self defense cases. That is the question, not simply for dialysis patients. In other words, as it would apply to the disparity of force issue which I know is settled law. How does a proven disability, (I am certified as 100% disabled legally right now) apply to the disparity of force issue?

Thank you,

Alaska444

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Once again, what disability related disparity of force issues are part of case law already. Is it state by state, or are there general parameters already settled case law. Going back to Pax and the egg shell skull theory, I have yet to see a direct application of that sort of thinking to any specific self defense cases. That is the question, not simply for dialysis patients. In other words, as it would apply to the disparity of force issue which I know is settled law. How does a proven disability, (I am certified as 100% disabled legally right now) apply to the disparity of force issue?...

What you want is an extensive, fully researched legal opinion. I've certainly done that sort of thing in the course of my practice. Doing a thorough and proper job, which if I undertook the the job I'd be ethically obliged to do, would involve a great many hours of careful research.

At my normal consulting rates, it would be a fairly expensive project. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do it here, for free. If you really must have a definitive answer, you will probably need to hire a local lawyer who is familiar with these sorts of issues and pay him for a well researched opinion.

 

[dyl]

No specifics to give to you (no cases). But I am just having a difficult time thinking of a scenario when the situation would be so ambiguous that the defining key would be that you are a dialysis patient. Attacker/s approach at night, recieves verbal warnings, defender moves off line /retreats yet attacker follows/pursues and shows intent, defender's weapon drawn, attacker ignores further warning. Crosses personal deciding line and fire. Call 911 and describe, establish case with police. That's the most ambiguous I can think of right now and without any verbal response or anyone laying hands on the defender. More interaction would make things even less ambiguous as to intent / justification at least in my mind. And the above scenario would seem realistic to me (although I am not the judge or jury) for someone without ESRD - who is in fear for their life or grievous bodily injury. Maybe you are worried that your appearance would throw a judge/jury into thinking there was no reason to fear for your life or that there really was no disparity of force.

If there is no case law regarding this does that mean you will take a few blows before drawing? Or wait until someone grabs you before you draw?

 

[KC Rob]

Maybe you could rig up something like this on your bike, should act as a pretty good deterrent:

 

[Alaska444]

Yesterday, 01:57 PM #27
dyl
Senior Member

Join Date: October 31, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 284
No specifics to give to you (no cases). But I am just having a difficult time thinking of a scenario when the situation would be so ambiguous that the defining key would be that you are a dialysis patient. Attacker/s approach at night, recieves verbal warnings, defender moves off line /retreats yet attacker follows/pursues and shows intent, defender's weapon drawn, attacker ignores further warning. Crosses personal deciding line and fire. Call 911 and describe, establish case with police. That's the most ambiguous I can think of right now and without any verbal response or anyone laying hands on the defender. More interaction would make things even less ambiguous as to intent / justification at least in my mind. And the above scenario would seem realistic to me (although I am not the judge or jury) for someone without ESRD - who is in fear for their life or grievous bodily injury. Maybe you are worried that your appearance would throw a judge/jury into thinking there was no reason to fear for your life or that there really was no disparity of force.

If there is no case law regarding this does that mean you will take a few blows before drawing? Or wait until someone grabs you before you draw?

Good summary. Yes, going by my appearance, I am actually about 200 pounds, 5'6" and still fairly muscular. I don't look like the usual dialysis patient since I do home daily. I still look like I can handle myself and I still have a fair amount of my strength, but very little endurance. The biggest issue is the superficial nature of my access and a single blow to the biceps where it is located could cause irreparable harm. Rupture would result in a very quick death with nearly 2L of blood a minute through this access.

Thank you for the information. It all depends on the basics in many ways and following the proper training. We were trained to back up if possible yelling stop, I will shoot. I understand the no retreat laws, just the preference of the CCW instructor making easier to defend backing up.

I hope I never get to put the issue to any test. Thanks for looking.