Beyond mil-spec?

K

keens

New member
I have been in the market for a new AR for quite some time. I had pretty much settled on a Daniel Defense m4 v5.. I was holding it the other day at a local shop and one of the employees asked me if I had looked into LMT. I had seen them, heard good things, but never held them.

He went on to say that Daniel Defense makes a "good mil-spec rifle" while LMT makes a "beyond mil-spec rifle". He told me their tolerances are less, the fit and finish and quality control was better, and that this placed them at a step above Daniel Defense.

Is this guy full of it?

edit: I forgot to include that I held one of the LMT's, the CQB MRP Defender. It felt great. I took it down, inspected the BCG, gas key, just some little stuff like that and everything was staked properly and the machining was perfect to my eyes. The only difference I noticed between the two was that the Daniel Defense had the slightest play between the upper and lower, while the LMT had NONE.
 
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Rule 1: Most folks who work in gun stores know less than they think they do. "Beyond mil-spec" is an interesting concept...and meaningless. BTW, mil-spec is designed to work under conditions encountered by the military, where reliability is paramount. Tighter tolerances mean less reliability., IMHO.

FH
 
There's some things not included with the current M4 TDP (the true mil-spec) that are surpassed by other choices. For example, a hammer forged barrel isn't mil-spec, but it is the superior choice. There's various coatings that aren't mil-spec, but can ease cleaning/lubrication (example: fully chromed bolt and carrier or the various other coatings like nickel boron).

A buyer needs to understand first what the "mil-spec" is referring to, and then what the feature is and why it isn't specified in the TDP. Sometimes it just wasn't used much when the TDP was developed. Sometimes there's cost issues. Sometimes there is indeed a quality difference with mil-spec being better than or worse than the option.

And don't just take a gun shop guy's word for it. They're pretty notorious for trying to sell what's on the shelf, not necessarily what suits YOUR needs and budget best.
 
What does "beyond mil-spec" mean? I would submit that the thickness of the chrome lining of a Noveske barrel is better than the "mil-spec" chrome, but I doubt that this kinda thing is what he was talking about.
 
And don't just take a gun shop guy's word for it. They're pretty notorious for trying to sell what's on the shelf, not necessarily what suits YOUR needs and budget best.
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The employee happens to be a friend of mine, probably should have included that. He owns many AR's.. BCM, LaRue, Les Baer, DD, LMT. He isn't trying to sell me on what they carry, he has suggested things they cant get a hold of
 
"Beyond mil-spec" is an interesting concept...and meaningless. BTW, mil-spec is designed to work under conditions encountered by the military, where reliability is paramount.
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Very true and yet, sometimes mil-spec is basically meaningless to the average buyer and has nothing to do with reliablility. For instance, the mil-spec receiver extension tube is .015" larger diameter than the commercial tube. The only difference is that if you have the commercial tube, you can't install a military butt stock on it but, why would you want to? Also, mil-spec usually means 1 turn in 7" rifling twist, but that is not necessarily the best twist for what you will be shooting a commercial model gun for. Yes, many of the mil-spec requirements mean better but not always.

Tighter tolerances mean less reliability.
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Only if you are not going to keep your weapon clean. If you are taking it into combat where it could be subject to sand, mud, ice, snow etc. then yes. That is why the AK is usually considered more reliable in the field than the AR.
It is also why the AR is usually more accurate than the AK. In general terms tighter tolerances usually means better accuracy.
 
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When I think of beyond mil spec regarding ARs, I think of something along the lines of the White Oak service rifle upper, not mil spec but sucker sure shoots nice.
 
Regarding the commercial vs. milspec reciever extensions; from what I understand, they are threaded differently and the threading on the commercial version is weaker. Just FYI.
 
1.14" Reciever extension tube: This is often referred to as the "milspec" receiver extension. The alternative to a "milspec" receiver extension is the "civilian" or "commercial" receiver extension. There is some debate as to whether or not the milspec extension is actually stronger or "better" than the commercial, but for most users the real choice comes down to availability of aftermarket stocks. Some companies, like Magpul with their CTR stock, offer versions for both extensions, but many do not. If you know that your intended stock is available for the commercial receiver extension or if you are happy with the stock your rifle comes with it is most likely not an issue. If, however, you want to change the stock or just keep your options open then the milspec extension is preferred.

Dimensions for a "milspec" receiver extension can be found here

http://www.magpul.com/pdfs/buffertube-Milspec-M4.pdf

Dimensions for a "commercial" receiver extension can be found here

http://magpul.com/pdfs/buffertube-civilian-M4.pdf
 
Re: chrome bore lining and chrome plating in general. The thickness of chrome plating isn't really what's important. It's the quality of the application that counts. I've seen chrome linings peel and pit because they weren't applied correctly in the first place.
 
The employee happens to be a friend of mine, probably should have included that. He owns many AR's.. BCM, LaRue, Les Baer, DD, LMT. He isn't trying to sell me on what they carry, he has suggested things they cant get a hold of
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I have a friend in a gun shop too... no quote marks, he's a good guy and a true friend. Still, he'll point people to the stuff he sells. I don't say that to be perjorative against gun shop guys, it's just important to realize they say things for a reason. Yours was pointing you to LMT, even when he doesn't sell them, so he's obviously seeing SOMETHING there, but I don't know what.

I'm not sure what makes LMT any better than BCM, LaRue, DD, and the others. Quite honestly, any one of those would be an awesome rifle and have capabilities beyond those needed by about 99.9% of the people on here.

Still, consider where your money is going and for what. As pointed out, the only place where there's an actual dimensional difference is on the receiver extension for a collapsible stock. Otherwise, it's all interchangeable with the difference being in materials, processes, and coatings. Even the forged vs. billet factors in- forged is cheaper, "mil spec" (although we can't get TRUE mil-spec lowers or LPKs thanks to federal laws regarding full auto), and good enough. Billet is more expensive and preferred by some (I've no idea why; it looks cool, but to me it isn't cool enough to add a few hundred bucks to the cost), but hasn't ever been mil-spec.
 
Remember "mil spec" = minimum qualified low bid. Do you want something equal to the governement's low bid item, or a "non-spec"/"beyond spec" upgrade?
 
beyond milspec....

Lots of slang gets tossed around at the local gun shop.........has a lot to do with age and the digestion of to many video games/movies/etc. Re; your choice for an AR style carbine. Have you looked at the Rock River Arms PDS.........they got a lot right about that weapon I think; just a thought.
 
Sorry, had a couple quality control issues with RRA in the past, won't do business with them again.

Probably going to stick with the Daniel Defense. Went out to order the v5 today from an old gun shop I used to work for and the cost from the distributor had gone up 100$. my luck, now I'm waiting again
 
Tolerances and clearances have specific meanings in production. It's the clueless who throw the words out to impress those they think know even less who keep distorting the real meaning.

A part with tighter tolerances is exactly what Winchester began making in 1964, taking less effort to hand fit them. It then cost less labor to complete a firearm. That means a post 64 is a better gun, right?

Military bolt actions had to increase the amount of room between parts to continue functioning in Arctic or muddy conditions. Tightly fitted parts would freeze or seize from ice or corrosion. The guns made later had looser fits and more clearance, making them better, right?

Do not confuse an arbitrary standard of what looks pretty with what it takes to function.
 
I'm sure your friend has nothing but the best intentions for you. And LMT is a quailty rifle.


However I would hesitate ot take someone's word just because they own AR's or work in a gunshop.

A car salesman may own and drive many cars but that dosen't make him a mechanic.
 
Tolerances and clearances have specific meanings in production. It's the clueless who throw the words out to impress those they think know even less who keep distorting the real meaning.
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Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here Tirod, why don't you just spit it out?
 
Yeah, I find some can't handle long sentences well. ADD or something.

Tolerances are based on what can be controlled in reproducing parts in mass quantities. They are listed on the blueprints within a range of measurements, such as +/-.015". That's a range of .030 allowable from one part to the next. It's what is actually specified on AR blueprints downloadable on the net.

Clearances are the space deliberately left between parts to leave enough room to function. Heat, oil, gas residue, etc take up space and things still need to move without suffering additional friction.

What DD, LMT, Colt, or anyone else holds to is proprietary, and nobody outside their employ, or their suppliers, says much about it. But the noncognoscenti blab on and on about who holds tighter tolerances. Add clearances, material specification, surface treatment, and dynamic operations, and you get the bigger picture.

What good are tighter tolerances if the vendors don't have the optimum gas length? You can use milspec and make things worse, carbine gas on 16" isn't correct, and the industry's answer was midlength, to cut down on CS expense.

If it's 100% milspec, it's just another Colt or FN built to the contract specifications. Change one thing, and a cascade of reengineering may be required, all not milspec. The evolution of the M16 from 20" rifle to 14.5" carbine has a lot of conflicting and different standards, tolerances, clearances, and specifications.
 
So are you telling me that you are busting my chops for using the term tolerances instead of clearances? Sounds like semantics to me. I think we are both saying the same thing. Maybe I used the wrong terminology, I hardly think that warrants being called clueless or of having ADD.

@Flatbush Harry; Please forgive me for my ignorance. When you said tighter tolerances, I mistook you to mean tighter clearances. Apparently you were correct in your statement and not being and engineer or a machinist I misunderstood your meaning. I do this sort of thing because I like to impress those who I think know less than I do and not because I simply misunderstood. Truth be told, I did know the difference anyway, it just didn't register.
 
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