Best type of lead for C&B balls and bullets
- Thread starter mrappe
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Drug out my old Lyman Black Powder Handbook and reread the article. It was actually in the early seventies. Val Forgett and George Nonte went to Africa.
Val did take the big five and other plains game. Killed a Seleous Lion with the Buffalo Hunter and 577611 Minie over 125 of 2F took out both shoulders and everything in between. Killed a Hippo with the Hawken Hunter and the Shilo Mini over 180gr 2F and muffed a side brain shot from close range on elephant and the PH had to finish the job with a .458. Same gun and load as the Hippo did penetrate over 18in of elephant skull though. Both of these minis had thick skirts to resist deformation. Interesting article.
Drug out my old Lyman Black Powder Handbook and reread the article. It was actually in the early seventies. Val Forgett and George Nonte went to Africa.
Val did take the big five and other plains game. Killed a Seleous Lion with the Buffalo Hunter and 577611 Minie over 125 of 2F took out both shoulders and everything in between. Killed a Hippo with the Hawken Hunter and the Shilo Mini over 180gr 2F and muffed a side brain shot from close range on elephant and the PH had to finish the job with a .458. Same gun and load as the Hippo did penetrate over 18in of elephant skull though. Both of these minis had thick skirts to resist deformation. Interesting article.
Rifleman1776
New member
Denster, yes, but Forgett used a rifle, not a repro CW rifled musket. World of difference.
Rifleman1776
New member
more on big charges in a rifled musket
Gator Weiss, I'll take on #4 first.
Yes, ramming a ball can distort the face. Tests have shown it is the base of the ball that is most important to maintaining accuracy. Consistent loading with a proper tip on the rod is the best way to avoid messing your ball. For hunting situations, a looser ball/patch combo is usually used anyway and you are not going to lose enough accuracy to matter.
#3: To be sure what I was talking about, since I am not a big time CW rifled musket shooter, I looked up something that was written by a friend of mine.
BTW, my area of interest is 16th & 17th century flintlock rifles. As far as I'm concerned, those preecussin thingys ain't been invented yet.
In the book compiled and edited by my, now deceased, good friend Don Davis, Winning and Shooting With the Champions, he had Bob Butcher write a chapter on shooting the rifled musket.
Bob, in those days (late 1960s through early 1980s) won many-many National championships with the rifled musket. Accepting what he says is a wise way to go.
He came to his conclusions by extensive testing. I have been there watching, by "extensive" I mean EXTENSIVE, days and days shooting all day, taking notes, trying powders, charges, voo-doo chants and any thing else you can imagine.
In the end, his winning combo was "proper lube", he lists many and doesn't seem too fussy except to avoid some, like Crisco; a 50-60 gr. charge of bp and the right bullets. About minie choice, he says, "The only two minie bullets I can recommend and I have tried them all, are the .58 cal. 575213 or the 575213OS. I like the old style (OS) the best. It's a lighter bullet and has a thicker skirt than the 575213, which has less tendency to break off or crack while firing causing 'flyers' or tumbling bullets - go 575213OS."
As to your idea to harden the minie to avoid over expansion of the skirt when using larger charges, I'll add my opinion that this would prove to be a futile experiment.
It would require: exactly consistent hardness from batch to batch when casting and Butcher-like extensive testing on the benchrest. You would make the lead and powder suppliers very happy indeed.
And, I'll remind you, the CW rifled musket was designed to INCREASE felt recoil. Heavy thumping on the shoulder a hundred or two hundred times a day ain't fun. You would not like it.
Bob won matches that included 100 and 200 yard offhand targets. The inventors of the CW rifled musket did a good thing. The design does what it was intended to do and it does it well.
I guarantee, if you can hit a deer, using stock open sights, shooting offhand at 200 yards, it ain't goin' no wheres after that 505 grain hunka lead hits him.
Did I miss any of your questions?
My bottom line advice is do what works for you as long as it is within safe parameters.
Gator Weiss, I'll take on #4 first.
Yes, ramming a ball can distort the face. Tests have shown it is the base of the ball that is most important to maintaining accuracy. Consistent loading with a proper tip on the rod is the best way to avoid messing your ball. For hunting situations, a looser ball/patch combo is usually used anyway and you are not going to lose enough accuracy to matter.
#3: To be sure what I was talking about, since I am not a big time CW rifled musket shooter, I looked up something that was written by a friend of mine.
BTW, my area of interest is 16th & 17th century flintlock rifles. As far as I'm concerned, those preecussin thingys ain't been invented yet.
In the book compiled and edited by my, now deceased, good friend Don Davis, Winning and Shooting With the Champions, he had Bob Butcher write a chapter on shooting the rifled musket.
Bob, in those days (late 1960s through early 1980s) won many-many National championships with the rifled musket. Accepting what he says is a wise way to go.
He came to his conclusions by extensive testing. I have been there watching, by "extensive" I mean EXTENSIVE, days and days shooting all day, taking notes, trying powders, charges, voo-doo chants
and any thing else you can imagine.In the end, his winning combo was "proper lube", he lists many and doesn't seem too fussy except to avoid some, like Crisco; a 50-60 gr. charge of bp and the right bullets. About minie choice, he says, "The only two minie bullets I can recommend and I have tried them all, are the .58 cal. 575213 or the 575213OS. I like the old style (OS) the best. It's a lighter bullet and has a thicker skirt than the 575213, which has less tendency to break off or crack while firing causing 'flyers' or tumbling bullets - go 575213OS."
As to your idea to harden the minie to avoid over expansion of the skirt when using larger charges, I'll add my opinion that this would prove to be a futile experiment.
It would require: exactly consistent hardness from batch to batch when casting and Butcher-like extensive testing on the benchrest. You would make the lead and powder suppliers very happy indeed.
And, I'll remind you, the CW rifled musket was designed to INCREASE felt recoil. Heavy thumping on the shoulder a hundred or two hundred times a day ain't fun. You would not like it.
Bob won matches that included 100 and 200 yard offhand targets. The inventors of the CW rifled musket did a good thing. The design does what it was intended to do and it does it well.
I guarantee, if you can hit a deer, using stock open sights, shooting offhand at 200 yards, it ain't goin' no wheres after that 505 grain hunka lead hits him.
Did I miss any of your questions?
My bottom line advice is do what works for you as long as it is within safe parameters.
Rifleman. You are correct Forgett used a heavy rifle with the 200gr charges behind a 610 minie. The Buffalo Hunter that he used with the 577611 and 125gr is basically a cut down Zuave.
I agree with you, in general, regarding the use of the rifled musket and there isn't anything on the North American Continent that can't be laid low within reasonable ranges with 60gr of 2f behind a standard mini.
I only brought up the Forgett article because he used pure lead minis just having heavier skirts to resist deformation. Interesting that same book has an article regarding at what point the standard mini starts to deform.
I agree with you, in general, regarding the use of the rifled musket and there isn't anything on the North American Continent that can't be laid low within reasonable ranges with 60gr of 2f behind a standard mini.
I only brought up the Forgett article because he used pure lead minis just having heavier skirts to resist deformation. Interesting that same book has an article regarding at what point the standard mini starts to deform.
Rifleman1776
New member
No, it is hard. And expensive.
Rifleman1776
New member
One must develop the fine art of scrounging to get good lead.
Admittedly, it is not always easy.
Around where I live the metal salvage yards are an excellent source. Try to get roofing, x-ray, electric cable wrap, pipe lead and others. Do the fingernail test on everything. Roofing and x-ray are probably the best types to work with and are consistently soft and pure.
Buy as much as you can at a time, it is not getting easier to find and certainly not getting cheaper.
I am down to about 100 pounds and will have to start looking for more. I have inquired at a salvage yard, he has quite a bit he'll sell for 50 cents a pound.
Admittedly, it is not always easy.
Around where I live the metal salvage yards are an excellent source. Try to get roofing, x-ray, electric cable wrap, pipe lead and others. Do the fingernail test on everything. Roofing and x-ray are probably the best types to work with and are consistently soft and pure.
Buy as much as you can at a time, it is not getting easier to find and certainly not getting cheaper.
I am down to about 100 pounds and will have to start looking for more. I have inquired at a salvage yard, he has quite a bit he'll sell for 50 cents a pound.
Rifleman1776
New member
Doc, as I understand it, it is now a much LOWER percentage of lead. Some say the wheel weights are mostly antimony now.
Wish they were. Then we could melt a high heat and skim the alloy off the top leaving (almost) pure lead. But, sadly, not to be.
Rifleman1776
New member
Noz, if you say so. I don't even know what those are. The only ones I am familiar with are the standard pound in types.
Guys,
Actually, there are hammer on weights that are made primarily (I am told) from zinc. They are not easy to pick out if you just try to feel the weight in your hand, but of course they remain solid at the melting temperture of lead.
The reason I asked the question is that (also I had been told), while wheel weights were once an alloy of about ten percent antimony or bismuth, about ten years ago, the cost of the alternate metals prompted the manufacturers to reduce the content in the alloy, leaving lead at about 98 percent of the content.
All of the roundballs I shoot pass the fingernail test. But this is IMO vague at best.
On the other hand, since the specific gravity of antimony, bismuth and tin are somewhat close to lead, some small amounts of these impurities (I guess we as shooters can call them impurities) doesn't make much difference in ballistics. I am well aware that hardness may be a more important consideration.
I would like to think I am shooting pure lead, but all I can say for sure is that it is "pretty pure".
Actually, there are hammer on weights that are made primarily (I am told) from zinc. They are not easy to pick out if you just try to feel the weight in your hand, but of course they remain solid at the melting temperture of lead.
The reason I asked the question is that (also I had been told), while wheel weights were once an alloy of about ten percent antimony or bismuth, about ten years ago, the cost of the alternate metals prompted the manufacturers to reduce the content in the alloy, leaving lead at about 98 percent of the content.
All of the roundballs I shoot pass the fingernail test. But this is IMO vague at best.
On the other hand, since the specific gravity of antimony, bismuth and tin are somewhat close to lead, some small amounts of these impurities (I guess we as shooters can call them impurities) doesn't make much difference in ballistics. I am well aware that hardness may be a more important consideration.
I would like to think I am shooting pure lead, but all I can say for sure is that it is "pretty pure".
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Just got off the phone...
...with a technical representative for Perfect Equipment in Tennessee. She told me that the lead based wheel weights they manufacture are from 93 to 99 percent lead with other metals being tin and antimony. She had no way of knowing:
1. How much change there is in the alloy and how fast....eg 93 percent today, 99 percent tomorrow, but she did believe it had to do with the cost of the metals.
2. Whether other manufacturers use similar alloys, although she assumed they do for market reasons.
3. How much of the market is supplied by Perfect Equipment.
If you look on the internet, you find that most of the manufacturers listed are Chinese.
...with a technical representative for Perfect Equipment in Tennessee. She told me that the lead based wheel weights they manufacture are from 93 to 99 percent lead with other metals being tin and antimony. She had no way of knowing:
1. How much change there is in the alloy and how fast....eg 93 percent today, 99 percent tomorrow, but she did believe it had to do with the cost of the metals.
2. Whether other manufacturers use similar alloys, although she assumed they do for market reasons.
3. How much of the market is supplied by Perfect Equipment.
If you look on the internet, you find that most of the manufacturers listed are Chinese.
Rifleman1776
New member
Not me. I can't get them in the chambers.
Sorry, you feed me a straight line and I can't resist.
Post #16 & #18 respectively:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419559&highlight=zinc+wheel+weights
Post #16:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303201&highlight=zinc+wheel+weights
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419559&highlight=zinc+wheel+weights
c.robertson said:
Model-P said:
Post #16:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303201&highlight=zinc+wheel+weights
joedapro said: