Best type of lead for C&B balls and bullets
- Thread starter mrappe
- Start date
Rifleman1776
New member
Pure soft lead only. For a variety of reasons.
Mrappe
As crazy as it sounds I like the Lee alminum molds better than the Lyman steel molds.
For one thing the aluminum molds come up to temperature quicker so you make fewer scrap bullets.
For the second thing the Lee molds make an essentially sprewless ball.
The downfall of aluminum molds is that just as they warm up fast, they also cool down fast. This means that in order to get consistent castings, you have to develop a relatively consistent rythm to your casting.
I did a study of the consistency of store bought bullets and found that a home caster can easily cast a better product.
Don't expect the average size of a Hornady .451 to be .451. They can be all over the place. Standard deviation can easily be .003. You can meet that at home with little effort.
I developed a set of spring loaded handles which always apply the same pressure to the molds while the bullet is solidifying. Standard deviation of bullets caste using this set of handles is right around .001.
My guess is that for most shooters this does not matter a hill of beans at the range. I just thought it was interesting.
As crazy as it sounds I like the Lee alminum molds better than the Lyman steel molds.
For one thing the aluminum molds come up to temperature quicker so you make fewer scrap bullets.
For the second thing the Lee molds make an essentially sprewless ball.
The downfall of aluminum molds is that just as they warm up fast, they also cool down fast. This means that in order to get consistent castings, you have to develop a relatively consistent rythm to your casting.
I did a study of the consistency of store bought bullets and found that a home caster can easily cast a better product.
Don't expect the average size of a Hornady .451 to be .451. They can be all over the place. Standard deviation can easily be .003. You can meet that at home with little effort.
I developed a set of spring loaded handles which always apply the same pressure to the molds while the bullet is solidifying. Standard deviation of bullets caste using this set of handles is right around .001.
My guess is that for most shooters this does not matter a hill of beans at the range. I just thought it was interesting.
Thanks for the info. I have always used Hornady .454 balls in my pistols. They swage a small ring of lead when rammed and I thought that was good to insure that there were no gaps between the balls and the cylinder walls. If pure lead is better can you tell me why? Does it take the rifling better? Also, what is a good source of pure lead?
robhof
Pure lead is easier to load, less stress on the ram and rammer, it is also easier on the rifling ang fills the bore more consistently than harder lead. A good source of near pure lead is once fired jacketed bullets, they're very soft. I scavange from the local outdoor range after rains, the bullets seem to run out of the berms and are on the surface in groups, easy picking.
Pure lead is easier to load, less stress on the ram and rammer, it is also easier on the rifling ang fills the bore more consistently than harder lead. A good source of near pure lead is once fired jacketed bullets, they're very soft. I scavange from the local outdoor range after rains, the bullets seem to run out of the berms and are on the surface in groups, easy picking.
Doc. I agree the Lee molds are nice. I have some I've used for over ten years and still going strong.
The reason I suggested .451 balls for Pietta is that the chambers are ,445/.446 . Using .454 balls is OK but it just makes more work and strain on the loading lever but if that is what you have no problem using them.
The reason to use pure lead is two fold. Alloyed bulets are much harder to load and also the chambers are a few thousandths under bore diameter and for the ball to obdurate to fill the bore soft lead is best.
You can shoot alloyed bullets but if you do it is best to have the chambers opened up to bore diameter and size your bullets to .001 over chamber diameter and bevel the mouths of the chambers to ease loading.
The reason I suggested .451 balls for Pietta is that the chambers are ,445/.446 . Using .454 balls is OK but it just makes more work and strain on the loading lever but if that is what you have no problem using them.
The reason to use pure lead is two fold. Alloyed bulets are much harder to load and also the chambers are a few thousandths under bore diameter and for the ball to obdurate to fill the bore soft lead is best.
You can shoot alloyed bullets but if you do it is best to have the chambers opened up to bore diameter and size your bullets to .001 over chamber diameter and bevel the mouths of the chambers to ease loading.
Gator Weiss
New member
Mr. Rifleman, I have a question for you; about civil war style mini bullets. The hollow based conicals with grooves, engineered for and normally fired in the 577 or 58 bore military barrells made with three lands and a moderate twist. In many specimens, the rifling is cut somewhat deep toward the breech, yet shallower toward the muzzle.
Some say exceeding 80 or 90 grains of powder tends to hyper expand the skirt in these pure soft lead cast hollow based bullets. The hyper expansion of the skirts has been photographed in flight by some research experts, so apparently it actually does happen. The hyper expansion of the skirt distorts the shape in such a way as to create much drag on the missle. This obviously causes the missile to suffer in accuracy and to dump velocity even more quickly than normally.
The school on black powder has always called for the use of pure unalloyed lead in a casting for the muzzle loading guns. BP cartridge guns will allow for harder leads.
I have some observations here, and my question is, do you think these observations would prove accurate, or do they just open other problems to be considered in BP shooting?
You seem like a very knowledgable guy and a credit to the forum. Would you comment on this for us?
1. Reproduction BP military style gun barrells are slightly thicker than many original cuts, and so they are a little stronger. You can therefore come up in pressure a just little bit with no worries or problems other than accuracy. But do not abuse this margin with reckless and dangerous pressures. Sometimes more pressure is desired in creating more energy for moose or elk, or for experimentation with long distance target work.
2. For more pressure, you obviously add more powder. But you risk hyper expanding skirts in a pure lead hollow base casting, and you risk some very weird or erratic flight characteristics if you are using simple patched round ball. Round ball isnt very accurate at high velocities.
3. Adding some alloy to the crucible can create harder lead, and less skirt expansion at higher pressures. Accuracy is held in place for a little bit longer distance accordingly.
4. Patched soft-lead round ball can be distorted by the rammer at loading. Accuracy suffers. Harder round ball casting will resist distorting the face of the ball on loading, and the patch is the only thing contacting the barrell anyway.
Please give me your thoughts on this.
Some say exceeding 80 or 90 grains of powder tends to hyper expand the skirt in these pure soft lead cast hollow based bullets. The hyper expansion of the skirts has been photographed in flight by some research experts, so apparently it actually does happen. The hyper expansion of the skirt distorts the shape in such a way as to create much drag on the missle. This obviously causes the missile to suffer in accuracy and to dump velocity even more quickly than normally.
The school on black powder has always called for the use of pure unalloyed lead in a casting for the muzzle loading guns. BP cartridge guns will allow for harder leads.
I have some observations here, and my question is, do you think these observations would prove accurate, or do they just open other problems to be considered in BP shooting?
You seem like a very knowledgable guy and a credit to the forum. Would you comment on this for us?
1. Reproduction BP military style gun barrells are slightly thicker than many original cuts, and so they are a little stronger. You can therefore come up in pressure a just little bit with no worries or problems other than accuracy. But do not abuse this margin with reckless and dangerous pressures. Sometimes more pressure is desired in creating more energy for moose or elk, or for experimentation with long distance target work.
2. For more pressure, you obviously add more powder. But you risk hyper expanding skirts in a pure lead hollow base casting, and you risk some very weird or erratic flight characteristics if you are using simple patched round ball. Round ball isnt very accurate at high velocities.
3. Adding some alloy to the crucible can create harder lead, and less skirt expansion at higher pressures. Accuracy is held in place for a little bit longer distance accordingly.
4. Patched soft-lead round ball can be distorted by the rammer at loading. Accuracy suffers. Harder round ball casting will resist distorting the face of the ball on loading, and the patch is the only thing contacting the barrell anyway.
Please give me your thoughts on this.
Gator Weiss
New member
Denster, Lee molds are great.
Denster, Lee molds are great. I agree with you. They are affordable and well machined. They throw a good cast once you get the hang of it and get the heat right.
I was looking over the Cabella's website on molds. I have bought molds there. Someone posting comments on the website was citing some negative things about using Lee molds. He said he would never buy another Lee product because of the quality of their molds. I have never gotten a bad Lee product. Apparently he liked steel molds.
What is the difference in the casting? A casting is a casting, whether it comes from aluminum or steel. At least, that is how I kind of see it.
Is there any real advantage worth spending a hundred bucks on a steel mold?
Denster, Lee molds are great. I agree with you. They are affordable and well machined. They throw a good cast once you get the hang of it and get the heat right.
I was looking over the Cabella's website on molds. I have bought molds there. Someone posting comments on the website was citing some negative things about using Lee molds. He said he would never buy another Lee product because of the quality of their molds. I have never gotten a bad Lee product. Apparently he liked steel molds.
What is the difference in the casting? A casting is a casting, whether it comes from aluminum or steel. At least, that is how I kind of see it.
Is there any real advantage worth spending a hundred bucks on a steel mold?
Gator. I don't have anything bad to say about Lee molds. I cut my casting teeth on Lyman molds years ago they were also good just more difficult to use. As long as you follow the directions with the Lee molds they will give you long and excellent service. They do need lubed and the cavity smoked as per the instructions and they will loose heat quicker as Doc stated if you pause in casting but can be brought back to heat much quicker than steel. Most complaints I've seen are from people who don't read instructions don't lube the molds and then gall the blocs then blame Lee for their ignorance.
Rifleman1776
New member
Gator Weiss, you flatter me, thank you. I have been deeply involved in the ML game since 1970.
My experience with the CW style rifled muskets is limited. But, I have known (past-tense, many are dead now) many of the top shooters with them. I can tell you this: there are fewer shooting disciplines where the participants experiment more than with those muskets/minies/powders/lead alloys/chants and incantations, etc.
I will say this, most, if not all who are going for accuracy, end up with the tried and true powder charges. Going hell bent for big bang gains nothing except smoke and recoil. (remember the CW rifle musket was designed to INCREASE felt recoil so the guys in battle would know when their gun when off) Most experimenting revolves around bullet style. I believe the most popular usually ends up with original style.
Understand, a .58 cal. very heavy bullet hitting a living target is a very formidable thing. Shooting the normal charges in the 50-60 gr. range is deadly plenty enough. By trying to go to 90 gr. or whatever you are leaving the world of traditional shooting and entering into a realm of problems. That is not what the CW rifled musket was designed for.
If you want a big bore, big banger, get, or have a good builder build you something like that. A custom Hawken in .58/.60 cal would be fine with the right twist and such. I have seen some up to a full 1.0" bore. With a good barrel and proper build you can stoke them up (almost) as full as you want.
I shoot a .54 Jaeger with 75 gr., patched round ball. And, I can tell you, going over that makes for very uncomfortable recoil even with the rifle weighing more than 10 pounds.
My bottom line advice is to go with what works for you if it is safe. Also examine what you want to do. If you want an elephant gun, build or buy one that loads from the back end. If you want to enjoy old guns in the traditional way. Then do it in the traditional way.
edit: hope this helps
My experience with the CW style rifled muskets is limited. But, I have known (past-tense, many are dead now) many of the top shooters with them. I can tell you this: there are fewer shooting disciplines where the participants experiment more than with those muskets/minies/powders/lead alloys/chants and incantations, etc.
I will say this, most, if not all who are going for accuracy, end up with the tried and true powder charges. Going hell bent for big bang gains nothing except smoke and recoil. (remember the CW rifle musket was designed to INCREASE felt recoil so the guys in battle would know when their gun when off) Most experimenting revolves around bullet style. I believe the most popular usually ends up with original style.
Understand, a .58 cal. very heavy bullet hitting a living target is a very formidable thing. Shooting the normal charges in the 50-60 gr. range is deadly plenty enough. By trying to go to 90 gr. or whatever you are leaving the world of traditional shooting and entering into a realm of problems. That is not what the CW rifled musket was designed for.
If you want a big bore, big banger, get, or have a good builder build you something like that. A custom Hawken in .58/.60 cal would be fine with the right twist and such. I have seen some up to a full 1.0" bore. With a good barrel and proper build you can stoke them up (almost) as full as you want.
I shoot a .54 Jaeger with 75 gr., patched round ball. And, I can tell you, going over that makes for very uncomfortable recoil even with the rifle weighing more than 10 pounds.
My bottom line advice is to go with what works for you if it is safe. Also examine what you want to do. If you want an elephant gun, build or buy one that loads from the back end. If you want to enjoy old guns in the traditional way. Then do it in the traditional way.
edit: hope this helps
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Gator. If you are interested in using minis over huge charges of powder. Google "Val Forgett Africa" for some interestingt reading. Val was the founder of Navy Arms and back in the 80's took Africa's big five and lesser game with Italian built guns he designed and sold as the Buffalo Hunter and Hawken Hunter and Hawken Hurricain. These used the Lyman 577611 mini and a mini that used to be produced by Shilo called the "stakebuster" that I believe was 610gr. These were shot over charges in excess of 200gr of 2F and I would imagine killed on both ends.
