Best self-defense round in .38 spl +p?

The Strasbourg Trials

The Strasbourg Trials were conducted under the auspices of the U.S. Army. The objective was to allow Army medics to practice life-saving techniques on gun shot victims, as well as study the the traumatic effects of various cartridges and calibers, and goats were used. Im pretty sure I can prove it, if anyone is interested.
 
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My guns fire actual bullets

My wife's S&W M38 fires managable 140g XTP's over a moderate charge of NOYB; very managable.
I think the modern 38 +P medium-weights offer the best balance of managable performance

Consider first reliably hitting your target; we're not talking ping-pong balls. We worry too much about magic ammo, ay?
 
If that Buffalo Bore round is really moving a 158gr LSWC-HP up to 1000 fps from a 2" barrel, I have to believe that exceeds the pressure standards for .38 special
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Not neccessarily. Some amazing things are coming out of Hodgdon Powder (and I suspect other powder mfg's as well) these days.
 
158g lead semi wadcutter hollowpoint +P. Pick your brand; Win, Rem, or Fed. Maker does not matter; all are the same thing. The only load you need to know for the 38.
 
Holy schmoly, Samunition... Absolutely PROVE IT! This I gotta see. ;)

I wasn't going to weigh in with my 2 cents but I guess maybe I'll give my opinion. Penetration is key -- you can completely destroy surface tissue and create a nasty wound that might hurt like mad... but you're trying to STOP someone. Ask a hunter what STOPS game and they'll tell you... either (1) CNS hit, (2) destruction of vital internal organs, or (3) massive blood loss. None of these things are going to be accomplished with out proper penetration. It's even more important with handgun rounds because, despite what the gun mags will tell you about "stretch cavities" and "shock power" and all that bunk, they just aren't moving at the speed necessary to do the type of collateral damage that rifle rounds will do.

That being said... you're playing a delicate game of balancing bullet mass -- heavy enough to penetrate but light enough to build adequate velocity out of your specific barrel length. When I say "adequate" velocity, I'm talking about NOT TOO SLOW but I'm also talking about NOT TOO FAST for your chosen bullet design. A rapidly expanding hollowpoint pushed at too fast a velocity will expand too quickly, dumping all its energy and probably fragmenting before reaching any sufficient penetration. This is why some hollowpoint designs will penetrate LESS when driving to higher velocities.

TCW (the original poster) has a GP100 with a 4" bbl. This is a beefy gun with a medium length barrel. There is no need to go with super-light 115/125 gr bullets, IMHO. A round like the 158gr lead hollowpoint out of a 4" bbl should be moving fast enough to deform or mushroom and still penetrate deeply enough to stand an okay chance of reaching something important.

Frangibles, IMO, are a bunch of hooey. They are extreme examples of massive but shallow wounds. If your biggest concern is not going through walls and killing people in other rooms, perhaps you need to spend some more time and money practicing hitting your target.

I have scoured the web and books looking for proof of these "goat tests" and have never seen ANYTHING. One shot stops and Fackler and Marshall and Sanow and Fuller and all these other guys who are trying hard to apply half-a$$ed statistics or mathematical formulas to something that has a nearly infinite number of variables are doing nothing but helping to mislead and confuse the general public as well as sell books, ammo, and make themselves famous.

Here is the common sense bottom line, folks. Draw your own conclusions, but don't ignore the most simple of facts.
(1) Hit what you're shooting at. Placement is absolutely vital (no pun intended).
(2) Have a bullet that is going to go deep enough to touch something important. That means even if it had to penetrate an arm, deflect from a bone, pass through a leather coat, slip through some denim, crack a rib, and enter a torso sideways. How many bad guys are going to be standing naked and facing straight at you?
(3) Anything that comes out of a handgun is going to be under powered to consistently stop a human attacker.

Hope this helps.
 
Ha

Ya just had to call me on it, didnt ya? :D Ok, years ago, I did have occasion to see the particulars and details on the Strasbourg Tests (yes, it was in a gun-rag). And yes, I am of the opinion that the tests really did take place...not that I believe everything I read. Anyhow, I said I was "pretty sure I could prove it". I cant seem to find that old gun-rag, and although Ive also "scoured the internet" I cant seem to find the smokin gun (no pun intended) So, for the moment, I am forced to concede that I cannot prove it as I had previously stated. I will keep an eye open for that proof, and if/when I find it I will post it. I did find one notable fact, and it is this: The town of Strasbourg, France (where the tests are alleged to have taken place) has managed to push through parliament a law banning cosmetics testing on animals.It only makes sense that the people of Strasbourg would have the necessary motivation to push for this law, if in fact the Strasbourg tests were really carried out.
 
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The town of Strasbourg, France (where the tests are alleged to have taken place)
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The tests allegedly took place in the American South, nowhere near either Strasbourg, France or Strasbourg, Pennsylvania.
 
Sammunition... No problem -- you knew someone was going to call you on it. :) I would love to see proof of these tests as I have heard nothing but anecdotal stories and various referrences over the years. It seems that everyone knows someone who knows someone... but no one has ponied up the actual facts with documented proof. I guess that's why I'm so skeptical about it. It's become one of those firearm urban legends that has spawned a whole breed of tangential "proof" about frangible ammo a la Magsafe and Glaser.

I'm always amazed at the total lack of consistency in the theories that revolve around ammo choices. People just love info that flies in the face of common sense -- I think it might have something to do with a sincere desire to know something that no one else knows.

For example, ask a handgun hunter what type of caliber and ammo that he would choose to drop medium sized game like whitetail deer. Most would tell you that the .357 mag is minimum and that heavy, deep penetrating bullets are the order of the day. Yet, when it comes to human attackers, light and fast seems to be all the rage. Now, I understand that a deer's physiology is different than that of a human... and that is a valid argument. But then in the same breath we're talking about picking frangible ammo based on supposed results from shooting goats. There are so many of these ideas that people love to buy into that it makes me wonder why we're so willing to give up belief in common sense and just go with what we read in publications that has their entire existence based on how well they can sell advertising for the same products they are supposedly "objectively" reviewing. Every time I read someone say that they "read" the .32 auto stops as well as a .380 or that a .44 mag is a terrible man stopper when compared to a .40 all based on supposed one-shot-stop percentages or something like that.... well, it's just mind blowing.
 
Oh... and one more thing... the goat tests took place in South America now? Every supposed "source" I have ever read has said France.

Tamara... are you just trying to put your own spin on the urban legend? :D
 
I will say the 158grain SWCHP+p has proven more effective on MY 'goat tests"! It doesn't skid off skulls, it can punch thru (barely) both shoulders, while mushrooming to 1/2". I have used it to slaughter more than a dozenfrom 1 to 50 feet away. 110 grain Treasury +p+ loads are not nearly as good. 173 grain Keith hard cast handloads are ok too, but don't mushroom although they penetrate even better and leave clean cut wounds. :cool: I have killed several hundred goats in my life but about 30 or so with a .38spl.
 
How profIcient is your wife with the GP100? If she's just a casual shooter the 135 grain Gold Dots are real pussycats out of the GP100. If recoil isn't an issue then a good .357 in a 125 grain HP or the 158 grain SWCHP will get the job done.

Just curious, if the Strasbourg test were held in France why didn't they just use Frenchmen instead of goats?
 
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