Best production bolt action on the market today?
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Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Sako. _>Simply the best over all the rest.
I've shot prairie dogs a few times and can see the need for good accuracy for that use. And I can see the need for fairly good accuracy for hunting antelope at long distances. But I simply don't see a real need for great accuracy in a big game rifle used to hunt deer sized game.
It's rare indeed to encounter conditions in the field where a ½ MOA rifle has any significant advantage over a rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA when hunting deer. Even a rifle that only shoots 2 MOA will put a bullet within 3 inches of the desired spot at 300 yds. if the shot is perfect. I don't believe many hunters can shoot even a ¼ MOA rifle within 3” of the desired spot at 300yds. under field conditions. There are just too many things working against you.
In the field there are no bench rests. No deer with sighting blocks or lines etched into their fur. Once the deer is spotted and you get into position for a shot, often after a bit of running or jogging, your heartbeat will likely be at least 2 MOA, and perhaps 4 MOA if for some reason you are excited. And the deer may not even have the wherewithal to stand still while you are squeezing the trigger. If you are shooting over 300yds. and your range estimation is off by 50 yards you may miss completely. Hope you can get that rangefinder into action in time. You did make sure your ½ MOA rifle shoots to the POA when held tightly with a sling, didn't you.
Or maybe conditions will be different. The deer spots you first. You are only 75 yards away. He starts to jog and immediately finds some object like brush, trees, or tall grass to put between you and him. Or he bolts. Either way, you have 5 to 10 seconds if you are lucky to shoot at a moving target. Within 3 seconds the gun is to your shoulder. But you cant find him in your scope that is set on 12X so you can shoot ½ MOA. Now 6 seconds have passed and the rifle is back to your shoulder as you see the deer disappear out of sight in your scope.
Then you hear three shots over yonder. You walk over and see it's the guy you saw earlier with his battle scarred Savage 99 in 300 Savage. He's standing the over the deer lying on it's side with three shots in it's chest. The guy shot him on the run at 50 yards. I guess that old Savage must be pretty accurate.
It's rare indeed to encounter conditions in the field where a ½ MOA rifle has any significant advantage over a rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA when hunting deer. Even a rifle that only shoots 2 MOA will put a bullet within 3 inches of the desired spot at 300 yds. if the shot is perfect. I don't believe many hunters can shoot even a ¼ MOA rifle within 3” of the desired spot at 300yds. under field conditions. There are just too many things working against you.
In the field there are no bench rests. No deer with sighting blocks or lines etched into their fur. Once the deer is spotted and you get into position for a shot, often after a bit of running or jogging, your heartbeat will likely be at least 2 MOA, and perhaps 4 MOA if for some reason you are excited. And the deer may not even have the wherewithal to stand still while you are squeezing the trigger. If you are shooting over 300yds. and your range estimation is off by 50 yards you may miss completely. Hope you can get that rangefinder into action in time. You did make sure your ½ MOA rifle shoots to the POA when held tightly with a sling, didn't you.
Or maybe conditions will be different. The deer spots you first. You are only 75 yards away. He starts to jog and immediately finds some object like brush, trees, or tall grass to put between you and him. Or he bolts. Either way, you have 5 to 10 seconds if you are lucky to shoot at a moving target. Within 3 seconds the gun is to your shoulder. But you cant find him in your scope that is set on 12X so you can shoot ½ MOA. Now 6 seconds have passed and the rifle is back to your shoulder as you see the deer disappear out of sight in your scope.
Then you hear three shots over yonder. You walk over and see it's the guy you saw earlier with his battle scarred Savage 99 in 300 Savage. He's standing the over the deer lying on it's side with three shots in it's chest. The guy shot him on the run at 50 yards. I guess that old Savage must be pretty accurate.
jetinteriorguy
New member
A rifle that is more accurate, will always be more accurate no matter what the conditions. Inaccuracy will just be more inaccurate under stressful conditions. If a .5. MOA rifle is 2 MOA under stress, then a 2 MOA rifle will be 8 MOA under the same conditions which is a huge difference in POI.
I don't believe the math works that way. The MOA errors would be additive in the situation you describe. The shooter error would be only 1.5 MOA, so the 2 MOA rifle would shoot 3.5 MOA.
MOA (angle) errors are additive. Distance errors (inches for example) are multiplicative over the range of distance.
MOA (angle) errors are additive. Distance errors (inches for example) are multiplicative over the range of distance.
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As far as best production rifle, I'd have to go with a (short action*) Sako. If one prefers a CRF, then one of the newer FN M70s.
*As I understood it, Sakos chambered in standard-length cartridges (e.g. .30-06, .270) had an issue with ejected cases hitting the scope and falling back into the action. That's obviously a reliability issue on an otherwise fine hunting rifle, and if big mean critters are on the menu, it can be a very serious reliability issue
. I've not read the issue's been fixed, so if they still have this issue, it's a big and unfortunate ding against "best" for Sakos chambered in standard-length cartridges. Fortunately, the OP's thinking about a short action cartridge.
Since the accuracy of the rifle and shooter are independent of each other, they aren't strictly additive; they are instead related by a Root Mean Square (RMS) relationship. IOW, the squares of the rifle and shooter add to the square of the net group size:
rifle^2 + shooter^2 = group^2
*As I understood it, Sakos chambered in standard-length cartridges (e.g. .30-06, .270) had an issue with ejected cases hitting the scope and falling back into the action. That's obviously a reliability issue on an otherwise fine hunting rifle, and if big mean critters are on the menu, it can be a very serious reliability issue
. I've not read the issue's been fixed, so if they still have this issue, it's a big and unfortunate ding against "best" for Sakos chambered in standard-length cartridges. Fortunately, the OP's thinking about a short action cartridge.BBarn said:
Since the accuracy of the rifle and shooter are independent of each other, they aren't strictly additive; they are instead related by a Root Mean Square (RMS) relationship. IOW, the squares of the rifle and shooter add to the square of the net group size:
rifle^2 + shooter^2 = group^2
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FISHNFRANK
New member
3 different price points. Tikka is a lower priced Sako. I’ve owned most of the major brands. Weatherby is probably the most accurate.
1) Sako/Tikka
2) Browning X Bolt
3) Weatherby Vanguard S2 (Howa)
I’ve owned 2 long action Sakos and never had that ejection problem even once
1) Sako/Tikka
2) Browning X Bolt
3) Weatherby Vanguard S2 (Howa)
I’ve owned 2 long action Sakos and never had that ejection problem even once
Hi FISHNFRANK,
I know that Weatherby has a stellar reputation. They sure market beautiful rifles, However, I've never seen a Mark V that was worth a plugged nickel. My friend had a couple. Kiss was a better group than either shot. My Model 700 shot circles around his Weatherbys. His bullets got there faster, but where they got was anyone's guess.
Long barrels seem to be all the rage among newer big game hunters. For me, I want no barrels longer than 24". I love .270 Win rifles with 22" barrels. I wish I had a .308 Win carbine. I could put that dude through a whole lotta serious hunting work.
When I was a kid, my dad used to take me to Weatherby's South Gate store. He told me then and many times thereafter that Weatherby had serious quality control issues. He told me that the then gold standard of factory rifles was Mannlicher-Schönauer. He did like excellent craftsmanship of Sako. But he also said that the then factory Model 700 rifles were hard to beat for the money. BTW, my dad knew a whole lot about metals and metal craftsmanship. He could look at a metal part and precisely replicate it.
There's a huge difference between Sako & Tikka. While they're manufactured by the same firm, that's where their similarity ends. But for the money, Tikka is a an excellent bargain.
I know nothing of the X-Bolt. People who own 'em love 'em. Others have said that the best Browning rifles came from FN, Belgium.
Browning owns Winchester. I'm not sure where new Winchester rifles are manufactured. I do have a Featherweight with CRF. I will admit that I bought in to the CRF marketing gimmick. It's a very good rifle, but inferior in every way to my Model 700, especially accuracy. BTW, my Model 700 will feed upside down. While I was proving to myself that it would, I remember thinking, "I sure swallowed that bait. Who the hell chambers a round while upside down?" It's a good action, but it isn't better than a Model 700 action, which isn't as good as a Sako action.
One of these days I'm gonna get around to selling my Featherweight. The only reason I've kept her around is because she's chambered in .308 Win.
If I were to start anew, I'd buy a Sako in .280 Rem and never need another rifle for any North American big game.
BTW, there were many times I've gone on Rocky Mountain hunts with only one rifle: either a Sako AV or my Model 700 .270 Win.
My advice for anyone looking for a new big game rifle is to look to Finland. If it's a Sako, he'll have the best available.
I know that Weatherby has a stellar reputation. They sure market beautiful rifles, However, I've never seen a Mark V that was worth a plugged nickel. My friend had a couple. Kiss was a better group than either shot. My Model 700 shot circles around his Weatherbys. His bullets got there faster, but where they got was anyone's guess.
Long barrels seem to be all the rage among newer big game hunters. For me, I want no barrels longer than 24". I love .270 Win rifles with 22" barrels. I wish I had a .308 Win carbine. I could put that dude through a whole lotta serious hunting work.
When I was a kid, my dad used to take me to Weatherby's South Gate store. He told me then and many times thereafter that Weatherby had serious quality control issues. He told me that the then gold standard of factory rifles was Mannlicher-Schönauer. He did like excellent craftsmanship of Sako. But he also said that the then factory Model 700 rifles were hard to beat for the money. BTW, my dad knew a whole lot about metals and metal craftsmanship. He could look at a metal part and precisely replicate it.
There's a huge difference between Sako & Tikka. While they're manufactured by the same firm, that's where their similarity ends. But for the money, Tikka is a an excellent bargain.
I know nothing of the X-Bolt. People who own 'em love 'em. Others have said that the best Browning rifles came from FN, Belgium.
Browning owns Winchester. I'm not sure where new Winchester rifles are manufactured. I do have a Featherweight with CRF. I will admit that I bought in to the CRF marketing gimmick. It's a very good rifle, but inferior in every way to my Model 700, especially accuracy. BTW, my Model 700 will feed upside down. While I was proving to myself that it would, I remember thinking, "I sure swallowed that bait. Who the hell chambers a round while upside down?" It's a good action, but it isn't better than a Model 700 action, which isn't as good as a Sako action.
One of these days I'm gonna get around to selling my Featherweight. The only reason I've kept her around is because she's chambered in .308 Win.
If I were to start anew, I'd buy a Sako in .280 Rem and never need another rifle for any North American big game.
BTW, there were many times I've gone on Rocky Mountain hunts with only one rifle: either a Sako AV or my Model 700 .270 Win.
My advice for anyone looking for a new big game rifle is to look to Finland. If it's a Sako, he'll have the best available.
T O'Heir,
My friend, some rifles are inferior to others and some are damned inferior to cesspools.
When Ruger got in to the rifle business, its rifles were junk, and that's being polite. Ruger had a contract with a barrel manufacturer. The manufacturer couldn't manufacture bookends let alone barrels.
Apparently its quality control has improved.
My friend, some rifles are inferior to others and some are damned inferior to cesspools.
When Ruger got in to the rifle business, its rifles were junk, and that's being polite. Ruger had a contract with a barrel manufacturer. The manufacturer couldn't manufacture bookends let alone barrels.
Apparently its quality control has improved.
FISHNFRANK said:
The problem seems to be somewhat dependent on the size of the windage turret and compounded with use of lower scope mounts. If anyone's interested, Google "Sako ejection issue", and you'll get plenty of hits. For those considering a Sako and doing their "due diligence", it's just something to look further into, IMO.
The Sako 85 is still a mighty fine rifle, and chambered in a short action cartridge, it'd still be my pick for best overall production rifle. Chambered in a standard- or magnum-length cartridge, I'd pick a newer FN M70.
Don Fischer
New member
I read many years ago an article telling of pressurer testing a lot of different actions. Based of which actions best held high pressure, the second place went to the early Jap rifles, can't remember what they were called. Ah Ariska! They handled well over 70,000 pressure before they blew up. First place was the old Savage 110! Handled over 80,000 before it blew up. Just a little something that came to mind.
What make's the best rifle depend's on what you like! I love my mod 700's, and all have the Walker trigger. Would not change out the walker for a custom! I have one mod 70 Feather Weight, love it but it's no better than my mod 700's. I have two Mossberg Patriot's, wood stock's, love them too! If I though of another rifle I needed and it was available through Mossberg in their Patriot, I'd buy it! I don't recall what I paid for my mod 700's had them a long time. But my mod 70 ran me just under $800 brand new. My Mossberg's much less. All look good to me and all shoot very well. Beside's that going by the formula so popular for buying a scope, one for the mod 70 I should pay in the neighborhood of $1600 for but I could do $600 on the Mossberg's. The mod 70 has a new Redfield 2-7x on it, about $145, probable break before I know it! The 308 Mossberg has a very very old Denver Redfield 1-4x on it. I paid about $80 for it brand new about 45 yrs ago!
Best is all in your mind depending on what you like. You probably won't believe this but there are still pump action CF rifles sold today! I've had two L61 Sako's and one L461 Sako in years past. Very nice rifle's but no better than any Rem 700 I've ever had. In fact I've had a couple $89 mod 788's that would out shoot them every time, which is best? There is no best. There is what you like and what you don't!
What make's the best rifle depend's on what you like! I love my mod 700's, and all have the Walker trigger. Would not change out the walker for a custom! I have one mod 70 Feather Weight, love it but it's no better than my mod 700's. I have two Mossberg Patriot's, wood stock's, love them too! If I though of another rifle I needed and it was available through Mossberg in their Patriot, I'd buy it! I don't recall what I paid for my mod 700's had them a long time. But my mod 70 ran me just under $800 brand new. My Mossberg's much less. All look good to me and all shoot very well. Beside's that going by the formula so popular for buying a scope, one for the mod 70 I should pay in the neighborhood of $1600 for but I could do $600 on the Mossberg's. The mod 70 has a new Redfield 2-7x on it, about $145, probable break before I know it! The 308 Mossberg has a very very old Denver Redfield 1-4x on it. I paid about $80 for it brand new about 45 yrs ago!
Best is all in your mind depending on what you like. You probably won't believe this but there are still pump action CF rifles sold today! I've had two L61 Sako's and one L461 Sako in years past. Very nice rifle's but no better than any Rem 700 I've ever had. In fact I've had a couple $89 mod 788's that would out shoot them every time, which is best? There is no best. There is what you like and what you don't!
disseminator
New member
Well, I'm gonna join the chorus and say the Sako is the finest production rifle.
I have two model 70's, 3 Model 700's, a 1939 vintage CZ Mauser 98, and a Sako A7 Roughtech in 308.
The Sako outclasses the others. Especially at it's price point. ($1150) I put a set of Talley Ultra Low one piece rings and a Leopold VXR and it's a great shooter.
I was just lusting after Sako 85 Bavarian in 6.5 Swede which I will own by this time next year. What a beautiful rifle.
I have two model 70's, 3 Model 700's, a 1939 vintage CZ Mauser 98, and a Sako A7 Roughtech in 308.
The Sako outclasses the others. Especially at it's price point. ($1150) I put a set of Talley Ultra Low one piece rings and a Leopold VXR and it's a great shooter.
I was just lusting after Sako 85 Bavarian in 6.5 Swede which I will own by this time next year. What a beautiful rifle.
jersurf101
New member
Weatherby or Winchester. I have rifles from Savage, a remmy 700, ruger and Sako. I would take my Weatherby Vanguard deluxe over all of them. The two position safety that doesn't lock the bolt on the 700 is awful.
Hold some does and see what you like.
Hold some does and see what you like.
OK, I'll sing along, just to a different tune.
"Best production rifle" is undefined. Best big game rifle? Best varmint rifle? Best what? Know what you are looking for before you start looking, it will make your search much more productive. At least you will know if a suggested rifle will meet your criteria or not.
I will agree with several opinions expressed here that CRF rifles are preferable to push feed, but that is just opinion. CRF rifles work well, push feed rifles work well, I just prefer CRF for my own peculiar reasons, so the rifles I recommend reflect that bias. My favorite rifles are commercial Mauser 98 (CZ or Zastava, in order of preference), Ruger M77 Mk II, Winchester M70, and Kimber 84.
But push feed rifles also perform well, if you prefer one of those. And there are a bunch of them on the market to choose from. Remingtons still work well, in spite of all the naysayers (who may not have handled one in a long time). Sako makes a nice rifle. Weatherby makes a nice rifle. Tikkas tend to be very light and I don't like plastic. Brownings are well-made (and come with nice wood).
"Best production rifle" is undefined. Best big game rifle? Best varmint rifle? Best what? Know what you are looking for before you start looking, it will make your search much more productive. At least you will know if a suggested rifle will meet your criteria or not.
I will agree with several opinions expressed here that CRF rifles are preferable to push feed, but that is just opinion. CRF rifles work well, push feed rifles work well, I just prefer CRF for my own peculiar reasons, so the rifles I recommend reflect that bias. My favorite rifles are commercial Mauser 98 (CZ or Zastava, in order of preference), Ruger M77 Mk II, Winchester M70, and Kimber 84.
But push feed rifles also perform well, if you prefer one of those. And there are a bunch of them on the market to choose from. Remingtons still work well, in spite of all the naysayers (who may not have handled one in a long time). Sako makes a nice rifle. Weatherby makes a nice rifle. Tikkas tend to be very light and I don't like plastic. Brownings are well-made (and come with nice wood).
Saltydog235
New member
Sako, close the thread.
The ejection issue is using x-low rings and big scopes standard low you don't have the issue. Neither my Finnlight or FinnBear have ever failed to cleanly eject a cartridge, both are LA magnums.
After I hunt a few times with one of my Sako's, the Remingtons, Savages and even the Winchester SG just feel cheap. The SG much less so but still not on par. And my Remington's and Savages aren't stock either.
The ejection issue is using x-low rings and big scopes standard low you don't have the issue. Neither my Finnlight or FinnBear have ever failed to cleanly eject a cartridge, both are LA magnums.
After I hunt a few times with one of my Sako's, the Remingtons, Savages and even the Winchester SG just feel cheap. The SG much less so but still not on par. And my Remington's and Savages aren't stock either.
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