Best M4 clone available?

You can use any capacity mags that you can find, up to and including a 100rd drum. Fortunately, 30-rounders for the AR were so plentiful before the '94 ban that their value has not gone up appreciably. You can find good quality mags for $15-20.

A pre-ban can only be purchased from a dealer or individual. Manufacturers do not keep old pre-94 lowers in stock. Some good sources for pre-bans:

http://www.ar15.com/

http://www.gunsamerica.com/

and, of course, the classifieds on our own fine TFL. You can expect to pay $1200-1600 for a pre-ban. I have not seen too many ads for lowers only. Usually they come as a complete package. But you can always buy another pre-ban configured lower if you have a pre-ban upper. There are a whole lot of other rules that have to be followed with pre-bans, but suffice it to say that if the receiver left the factory in a pre-ban configuration before Sept '94 (i.e., with all the evil features), you can dress it up just about anyway you want. If it left the factory prior to Sept '94 but did not have some evil features, you cannot add them on now, even if it is pre-ban.

Finally, if you think this maze of confusing laws is punitive and unfair, join the group. But instead of just complaining about it, get get involved politically. Join the NRA, join the GOA, and write and visit your congresspeople.
 
Magazines

Okay, the 1994 Assault Wepons Ban also banned the sale of detachable box magazines that hold more than 10 rounds to civilians. The ones made since are marked GOVERNMENT/EXPORT USE ONLY (or something like that, I'll have to look next Guard drill). Possession of one of these is considered, by our good friends in the BATF, to be the same as posessing a hand grenade, because it's considered a Class Five Destructive Device, or something.

However, there were millions and millions of magazines made before the ban, but since the supplies are limited, the prices keep going up. Get them NOW. The GI magazines are best for the AR, but the aftermarket ones can be had for less money, and will often work almost as well. Pre-ban magazines can legally be used in any firearm that accepts them, and there are preban magazines in 20, 30, and 40 round capacities for the AR-15 family available.

As for your assembly of the gun. You know, a pre-ban upper with a flash suppressor and bayonet lug, and a regular collapsing stock, will fit on a post-ban lower just the same, which is what really irks me. It's legal to OWN these components, but if you put them on your gun you're in technical violation of the law and are technically a felon.

Of course, in order to get prosecuted, you'd have to have someone knowledgeble enough about the law to even know that that configuation was illegal, but you never know, so it's probably best to stay on the legal side of things. Keeping up with all these asinine laws is indeed a headache, though, which is EXACTLY what the BATF wants, I think.

Your tax dollars at work!
 
Now I must admit that I am a total novice when it comes to military protocall, but as a member of the armed services, couldn't you purchase your own post-ban LE/gov't/military Colt M4 with all the bells and whistles?

I would think you could simply get premission from your base commander assuming you want to fork out your own money. Which BTW is way cheaper than what we plain folk have to pay (LE = $900, preban lower $1K + Colt M4 Upper $800 = $1800). I would think the only hurdle would be if you ever retire from service.

I do believe many LEO's can do the same with premission from their CLEO.

-Red-
 
Viceroy,

rock_jock said it. You'll almost certainly have to find your pre-ban foundation second hand. And you want to make sure you can verify that it was, in fact, assembled into a complete "pre-ban weapon" before the magic date in 1994. One can find stripped lowers for a lot less than complete firearms, but there you need to be doubly certain that the lower was previously assembled. The BATF doesn't look kindly on someone assembling a "new" SAW from parts regardless of when the parts were manufactured. But for legal purposes, if it was a SAW before the ban, it's a SAW now, even if all you have left is the stripped lower.

One way (there are others) to play it safe is to find a genuine Colt SP-1 lower. They ALL left the factory as complete weapons, so you can build anything you want on them.

Another way is to buy a complete Colt pre-ban rifle (SP-1, SP-2, HBAR, whatever), making sure the serial number is pre-ban, and then purchase a pre-ban configuration upper from someone like Bushmaster. Install a collapsing stock, and there's your M4gery. Keep the original upper and you can always switch back to the original configuration if/when you like . . . or sell the upper to someone else.

Let us know what you finally decide. And like rock_jock said, while your spending the money (premium) on a pre-ban lower and lots of parts to build your M4 clone, suck it up and write the check to the NRA and GOA!
 
rock_jock said:

"...but suffice it to say that if the receiver left the factory in a pre-ban configuration before Sept '94 (i.e., with all the evil features), you can dress it up just about anyway you want. If it left the factory prior to Sept '94 but did not have some evil features, you cannot add them on now, even if it is pre-ban"

This is false. If the lower receiver was not assembled into a complete rifle (or in close proximity to a kit of parts to assemble it into a complete rifle) before Sept. 14, 1994, you cannot have more than one of the following evil features on your rifle:

1. Flash suppressor or muzzle threaded for flash suppressor
2. Bayonet lug
3. Grenade launcher
4. Vertical pistol grip
5. Collabsible\folding buttstock

Note I said nothing about factory assembly. If you bought a stripped lower and assembled it into a complete rifle before Sept. 14, 1994, then it is a legal preban rifle.

Now, if the lower receiver is a true pre-ban (i.e., it was assembled into a complete rifle before the ban, or in close proximity to a kit of parts to assemble it into a complete rifle), then you can put any and all the evil features you want on it. Even if it had NO evil features before the ban, as long as it was a complete rifle (or in close proximity to a kit of parts to assemble a complete rifle) before the ban, then you can put all the evil features on it you want.

The "or in proximity to a kit of parts to assemble a complete rifle" stipulation is exemplified by the fact that Armalite was selling legal preban Eagle Arms rifles up until last year. The receivers were made before Sept. 14, 1994, and over the years, they were surrounded by plenty of parts to assemble complete rifles.

I hope I cleared up more confusion than I created.
 
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Ok so I need a preban lower to get away with it, right?
I guess I can get those from Bushmaster?
Click to expand...

nope

preban lowers are purchased "used" from other civilians
Bushmaster does not sell used hardware

They do sell LEO full feature set ARs to police with signed papers
but on retirement the gun goes to the police department

expect to pay 500 bucks extra for the preban rifle
 
If I am wrong, I apologize and stand corrected. However, I have heard it differently, even on this forum, by folks who are very sure of their understanding also.
 
An AR with a pistol grip, flash suppressor, bayo lug, and telestock is no more an "assault weapon" than an AR with just a pistol grip and flash suppressor. The law makes no distinction. If it has more than one of the 5 evil features I listed, then it is an "assault weapon". If it has 1 or less of the evil features, then it is not an "assault weapon". And the average citizen can only legally possess an AR in "assault weapon" configuration if the lower of that AR was part of a complete rifle (or parts kit) before the ban. In a nutshell.........
 
thank you everyone

but i feel ill . . . seriously ill . . .

good news is that a friend of mine knows another friend who has 5 pre-ban bushmasters for sale in california. will check this promising development out.

as for owning a personally owned weapon on post, forget it . . . it still has to be registered with the state the post belongs to (Kentucky) . . . which is what i know, so having SAWs and 240B's is a big no no.

oh well . . . by the way does anyone recognize the taclight/laser combo here? what is it?

Lrlazer.jpg
 
The first time you handled an M249 was at the EIB test? How is that possible? You didn't see one in basic training? What is your MOS?

WTF did a Marine join the 101st for?

You say you went to "boot"? Last time I checked the Army had Basic Training/OSUT. Calling it boot camp is usually beat out of your head in week one.

A "grain of sand" in the trigger assembly, and you had to "cock the charging handle for each shot"? That makes no sense. Sand would make for a gritty trigger pull, but that's about it. Why would you have to charge the weapon? I've been in 7 years and have never seen or heard of this problem. Interesting.

In my experience, both the M4 and M16A2 function just fine. Our nations finest are on the ground in Afghanistan right now, with their hands on M4 pistol grips as I write this.
 
geez

You certainly tore into him, didn't you? I went through basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood in 1999. We never laid eyes on a SAW the entire time there. The Army does not call it "basic/OSUT". It was referred to, in techical terms as Initial Entry Training (basic) and Advanced Individual Training (AIT). Collectively, referred to as boot camp, by most of us there, though we only used the "proper" references in front of the Drill Sergeants. I still call 'em "dog tags", too, though the Drills INSISTED that they were "ID Tags". *shrug* Guess I wasn't brainwashed after all.

Why would a Marine join the 101st? A lot of Marines transfer into the Army after they get out of the USMC, as well as the Reserves and the Guard. Our battalion commander was in the Marines.

You sound like you're accusing the poster of lying.
 
let's see ...

Nomex, I'm an 11 series. Came out of OSUT in Fort Benning, out of 1/50, "Devil's Playground" a looooooooong time ago. Not once did I hear it referred to as OSUT. It was Basic until one day we woke up and it was AIT. Same difference, just the numbers had shrunk from all the AWOLs and recycles. Colloquially we called it "boot" or "basic." I still call it "boot." I have my blue cord. I don't think use of that word sullies it in any way.

The day we went to the range to play with the SAWs we got rained out. Like fools we sat there for hours while we waited for word on whether to proceed or not. Squat low, spread out, get hit by the rain and wait. Do a few front back go's. Sure enough, no. Danger of lighting strikes, supposedly. Thus I never had the chance to really get hold of a SAW until EIB. Which I got by the way on my first try. I wasn't assigned one in my squad, and I wasn't all that eager to get hold of one. So there.

Now as for my roommate, he left the Corps under an honorable discharge because he had serious, serious difficulties with one of the NCOs over him while he was stationed in Thailand. You don't need the story. The circumstances were such that he left with an honorable in spite of the circumstances. He kicks himself for leaving but he didn't have much of a choice.

You've been in 7 years? Outstanding, I assume you're Marine Corps infantry. As for the grain of sand, I didn't believe it either until we went to the range and I noticed that after my first shot the trigger locked and would NOT fire a follow up shot when I pulled the trigger. I did SPORTs etc etc and as it turned out I did have to cock for each shot until I just gave up. I shotgunned the weapon to look inside and sure the hell enough there was a big grain of sand right there in the trigger assembly. I showed it to three other friends from the Battalion Scouts who were sitting right beside me at the time. I just flipped the lower receiver upside down, shook it out, did a functions check, and went on with my day.

As for preferences, I have friends here who despise the M4 and swear by the M16A2, or vice versa, or who love both, or who hate both. It's really just a matter of preference, so why belabor it?

I already have friends in 5th Group who've left - they work right down the street from me on Indiana Street on post here at Fort Campbell. From the Division, Rakasaans have left. 502 is going. I'm in 327, and we're all either stuck going to JRTC or pulling guard waiting for our turn. I wonder where you are while the Corps are sending MEFs to the Middle East?

Anyways Nomex, do you want the number for the CQ desk so you can confirm I'm with the unit I'm at or something? If you do have a point to prove, go ahead and put it down. I do have my ruck, my A and B bags packed to go, by the way, and I'm waiting for the op order to come down. Try not to make it sound like I'm so severly lacking in patriotism or in duty over what really sounds like a pathetic, miniscule issue. Now if you're actually going, I'll see you in the Panjshar Valley or wherever it may be, should our paths cross. Oh and if you do have the time, do send a prayer for my friends down the street whose cars are gone from the lot. I do every day. I wish I was one of them too.
 
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