Best M4 clone available?

V

Viceroy808

New member
Hi everyone, I'm in the 101st Airborne Division (infantry) and I'm assigned an M4 which I qualify expert with and very much love (in spite of all its many, many faults ...) My problem is that I am about to be assigned an M249 SAW and will lose touch with my beloved (and tempermental but still dear) rifle.

While on guard duty I was thinking of what would be a nice civilian equivalent to get, and from which company. I'd like to know what the options are. I don't mind losing the 3-round burst capability (I never use the damn thing anyways) but I am worried about barrel length and whether or not I can keep a flash hider on there. Suggestions would be much appreciated.
 
You won't have trouble finding something close to the M4, if you're willing to trade the flash hider for a muzzle break(MB) and give up the adjustable length stock.

If you must have those features, then you will have to buy a pre-ban model. Expect to pay about 2X more for a pre-ban than a post-ban that doesn't have those two features.

Bushmaster makes a model with a 14.5 barrel (with stepdown) and a permanently attached MB. You can add an adjustable "type" of stock (as long as it is fixed in one position).

Personally, I would go with the 16" barrel without the MB and the standard stock.
 
Just curious, but how is the M4 tempermental, and what kind of faults does it have? I don't own one, but they look so cool, and I just assumed they'd be reliable like the M16A2. And while we're at it, what kind of reliability issues does the M16A2 have. Thanks for your replies.
 
I bought a Professional Ordnance Carbon 15 a couple of months ago. It had a 16 inch fluted stainless steel barrel and the lower and upper is mostly carbon 15 composite. The thing weighs 4 pounds and comes with a weaver rail which I added a red dot scope to. I was at the range on sunday and was getting 2 inch groups at 100yds some grps were even smaller. The reliability seems to be pretty good considering some people have complained about jamming. Also the rar of the gun comes off and converts the gun into a pistol type set up with muzzle break and all. I like it and will be using it for alot.
 
Bushmaster is now offering a postban telestock on their rifles, fixed in the longest position. I only scanned briefly through their latest catalog, but I think they have an M4gery model available.
 
Apeach - I never liked the M16A2. Used that in boot, hated it. Lots to clean and jammed way too much. grain of sand in the trigger mechanism can force me to cock the charging handle for each shot. I can't count how many times it double fed. With the M4, I can't smash anyone with the stock (I did that with the M16A2.) I can go on and on but I'd rather not. It's depressing. But to be honest I like the M4 better. It's not as much of a pain when I ruck.

john1932 - can I get an URL for the company you bought it from? Very interested. Thank you.

By the way how does the muzzle break change things compared to the flash hider?
 
Viceroy getting a SAW is not a problem. I loved my SAW when I was a SAW gunner in the Corps. A little heavier but you gotta love the firepower. :D

If you're looking for a good copy that is mil spec (except for the 14.5" barrel which has to be 16" to be legal) go with the Bushmaster. Bushmaster makes a great rifle. I've had one of their shortys for about 10 years and never had a problem with it. You will have to have the pinned "retracable" stock but you can get a muzzle break that looks like the original flash suppresor put on after market by Wilson Combat. They do it for I believe about $75. It's permanantly afixed. Looks really nice.

I've never shot the rifle that John was talking about but I handled one in a shop. I personally found it way to light and not very well balanced. Not bagging on you or your rifle John but if he's looking for a rifle to replace his M4 that's not it. It may be a good rifle in it's own but it just doesn't have the feel of the M4.
 
You just missed the AR15.COM Limited Edition rifle for $660 shipped to your FFL, I think the deal was done at the end of August. It has the fixed stock, and a 16" barrel and a very clever fake flash hider, looks as real as the real one. Great shooter too, FWIW...

74093_AR15.COM_Limited_Edition_Rifle.jpg
 
"By the way how does the muzzle break change things compared to the flash hider?"

Muzzle break= less muzzle rise, but more noise (mostly directed toward those standing next to you). If you shoot at an indoor range, prepare yourself for some rubbernecking and groaning while your shooting. They are LOUD. That is one reason I'd go with the 16" barrel W/O a MB.

The MB has to be permanently attached to the barrel to be legal. All major makers will pin/weld the MB.
 
Why would anyone want a muzzle brake for a 5.56 anyway? I have a Bushmaster with a M4gery upper (Viceory, in case you're not familiar with that term, a M4gery is the post-ban version without the MB/flashider) that tops out at around 6.5 lbs and it produces very little recoil. The extra noise is just not worth the trouble, especially if you ever have to use the gun for "social" purposes where ear protection is not readily available.

BTW, I took my M4 out yesterday and set up standard Texas DPS silhouette targets at 50 yds. With a Holosight, I was getting consistent head shots while MOVING. This is more a tribute to the optics and especially the gun rather than my shooting abilities, but I was impressed nonetheless.

Viceroy, whatever you do, don't skimp on what you buy. There are lots of companies making ARs, but only a few make very good ones. Do a search on "AR" on this forum and you will find that most folks, including myself, recommend three Armalite, Bushmaster, and Colt. I like the Bushmaster myself, both because of the quality and the fact that it is 100% milspec.

Finally, once you pick a manufacturer, consider carefully your choices for what configuration you want. If you want optics, like a Holosight/Aimpoint/Trijicon, think about getting a flattop version. Optics will balance better, and if you want to use the carry handle, you can always order one of those to screw on later.
 
Rob01 - I like the SAW already . . . first time I handled it was when I got my EIB a few weeks ago . . . My roommate who is also a former leatherneck told me to shoulder fire the thing which shouldn't be too hard with the paratrooper stock . . . too bad we don't get the shorter barrel and the CQB foregrip too . . .

So let me guess . . . in order for me to have my M4 I have to sacrifice and get a muzzle brake? Is there any way I could add an aftermarket barrel and get away with it? *sigh* I'm even willing to do away with the bayonet lug.

Oh well . . . speaking of which I found:

www.zmweapons.com

Anyone have any experience with them?
 
on a post september 13th, 1994 manufactured semi auto AR15
you are allowed 2 evil features
(except in California where all non registered ARs are now no nos)

here is the list:
detachable magazine
pistol grip
flash hider (rifle genade launcher)
bayonet lug
threaded barrel end
tele stock

most people think the pistol grip and detachable magazine are must have features
 
Viceroy, if you want to keep your options open, start looking for a pre-ban AR to build on. If you can find a lower that the factory will verify to have been assembled into a complete SAW before the 1994 ban, you can build whatever you want on it. Bushmaster sells pre-ban configuration uppers for installation on pre-ban lowers. Shouldn't be too hard to build an M4gery if you start with a legal platform.
 
Let me guess ... I have to be an LEO to have all the goodies? I can't stay in the Army and have them? *blink blink*

So if I want to goto Range 16 in the back 40 here at Fort Campbell for Personally Owned Weapons, I can't practice with something close to my weapon?

What in the world is wrong with this country? *sigh*
 
Brother, I feel your pain. But if you build on a pre-ban lower, you should get very close to the M4. Only real difference would be that you'd need a 16" barrel, but on a pre-ban lower, you could have an honest-to-goodness flash hider on it.
 
Ok so I need a preban lower to get away with it, right? I guess I can get those from Bushmaster?

Ok so can I get away with this baby in the pic below? I need to use 20-rounder mags right?

Of course by this baby is so not milspec but for a POW? I can probably get parts from Knights Armament and Bushmaster for my issue M4 ... what do you think?

Legionnaire - damn I feel like a jackass for not keeping up with the issues ... where was I all this time?

It's not like I sneak ammo off the range and use it for myself (unlike some other units, who somehow *lost* 20,000+ rounds after one field problem,) why can't I use my own rifle for my country!?

Of course even if I do get to use my own rifle it'll probably be like Desert Storm - I'll have to leave the thing behind right?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrggggggg

Posbcom.jpg
 
Viceroy, we here feel your pain. But if you think giving up the M4 goodies are bad... You're going to feel ill after missing your SAW.
 
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