Best double action to shoot single action fast?

A

AJ Peacock

New member
All,

I have a question for you all.

I shoot a lot of Cowboy action (single action Ruger's). I shoot them
pretty fast. I shot my dads N-Frame 38 the other day and everything
was great until I started shooting it single action (real fast). I started
shaving lead left and right.

So my question. Is there a double action that will stand up to this type
of abuse? I'd like to get a revolver to use as a backup CCW and since I
shoot around 15k rounds/year with my single actions, if I ever 'reverted to
my training' I'd probably shoot the revolver single action.

So, What says the Forum?

Thanks,
AJ


BTW: The N Frame is in excellent condition and locks up nice and tight.
 
Watch it

If you are ever involved in a defense shooting and shoot single action, Massad A. says you may be accused of recklessness, as the prosecuter will ask you if you cocked back the hammer and then will demonstrate that the gun had a "hair trigger" in that condition, and you fired unintentionally, due to an itchy finger, and try to bag you for manslaughter. Maybe you should see about some double action trigger work on the gun you plan to use to make it smoother and easier to shoot without disturbing aim, but that will probably be moot at a close range in a hurry. maybe you should just watch out for the trick in trying to get you to admit thumb cocking before you fired!
 
I like a M10-7 S&W in 38 Special. I am gravtating towards WASA shooting. I have a S&W M&P M10-7 and my 1911 Colt. I ran the M10-7 through speed drills and dumps. The revolver took it in stride. I did try to fire fast in single action. There were problems. I disassembled mine and polished the internals and smoothed the milled trough in the sideplate. I did polish the bolt too. I reran my drills and had no more problems. The whole seemed to boil down to the reset of the trigger. Double action revolvers CAN be fired single action. They are not set up for it. Tolerances, polishing and smoothing usually need to be investigated. IOW, there is not a "good" double action revolver for single action fire. They need gunsmith attention first. An analogy would be to expect a stock Ford Taurus to be a NASCAR winner. They need a LOT replaced, reengineered and reworked to be converted from a grocery getter to a trophy winner.
 
Sir William,

Thanks for the info. I always 'smooth up' my guns (all of them), so thats not a problem. I was just curious what would be a good DA revolver to start with.

Thanks again,
AJ
 
I shot CAS for many years. I saw WASA as a change of pace. The odd thing was trying to find non-MIM triggers/hammers. I have nothing against MIM. My Colts have some. No problem. The S&Ws do not clean up well when the trigger/hammer is MIM. I looked for earlier model all steel revolvers. I have tried to replicate a S&W Model of 1899 style revolver. I wanted a lanyard ring, fixed sights, 38 Special, hammer mounted firing pin and serrated trigger. I quickly switched to a smooth trigger. If you are open to anything, I would consider a M66 (no dash) with a smooth action job. Make certain the gunsmith knows single action performance is desired. He can reangle, stone and polish for that purpose. Out of the box perfection is a dream today. The days of buying a "perfect" revolver went with cost cutting, MIM and no more hand fitting of parts. Good and bad.
 
"If you are ever involved in a defense shooting and shoot single action, Massad A. says..."

When you got these pearls of wisdom from MA did you ask for a case cite? MA seems to be credited with all kinds of these statements. If it's true he actually preaches this "stuff" (I'm being kind by calling it "stuff") then I'd like to see actual case cites. So far when someone has come up with these and I've asked for supporting documentation no one has been able to supply any cases, or even 1 case, where these have been a factor.
If it's a justified shooting it doesn't matter if shot SA, DA, this bullet, that bullet, or whatever caliber. If it's a non-justified shooting then it still doesn't matter because no caliber or gun will turn a non-justified shooting into a good shoot.
 
My memory seems to recall the incident. The use of a single action revolver. A western (Montana?) police chief shot a UC LEO, The UC LEO was an addict.. The police chief was trying to talk him into rehab. The UC LEO reached for his weapon. The police chief drew and thumbed a round into the UC LEO before he could finish his draw. A big issue was the single action thumbing. Bill Jordan himself demonstrated this method to the court. The police chief was acquited. That is the only case of a single action EVER being an issue in a deadly force incident AFAIK.
 
So had the chief shot the UC LEO with a DA would he have been convicted? Did the use of SA weapon make the shooting justified and therefore acquitted? With the limited info given it would appear justified had the chief used SA, DA, or full auto.
Case cite please.
I also know of a case where a detective shot a subject in the head claiming his 1911 accidently went off as he was stowing it before going into the interview room. Wouldn't have made any difference if it were a DA, it was still a negligent shoot.
 
Read it long ago.

No, I cannot remember which case exactly he was talking about. I did not say that it was wrong that someone shot a perp justifiably with SA. Just that it could be a strategy that the people trying to hang you for self defense might bring up. I associated that with the reason that some police depts. converted their revolvers to fire DA only, in the past. But also in the old west, probably all bad guys were shot SA. Could see it not being an issue possibly, if a SA revolver was used for defense nowadays, possibly. Just say in your testimony that you pulled the trigger all the way instead of falling into the trap of being led to say you cocked the hammer....
 
"Just that it could be a strategy that the people trying to hang you for self defense might bring up."

They could bring up that why did you shoot the subject with a 12 ga and not a .22. Or they could bring up why shot at him twice instead of once. They could bring up you carried a 1911 (a SA) instead of a S&W DA. They COULD bring up anything but that doesn't matter turn a justified shooting into a bad shoot. And that's my point to counter all these internet-could-be. Show me a case where shooting someone with a SA or DA or this caliber or that has made a difference if a shooting is justified or not.

"Just say in your testimony that you pulled the trigger all the way instead of falling into the trap of being led to say you cocked the hammer...."

Is it going to matter if it's a 1911 or a S&W Model 66? Better yet, why not just testify that you shot the subject because you believed your life was in danger.
I've been in LE for nearly 34 yrs. I've investigated uncounted number of shootings, both LE and non-LE. I've taught investigations. I've testified at grand jury hearings, trials, and civil cases. All these "could" "maybe" "unnamed cases" are just speculation by those who have nothing to show to hang their hat on. I just want to see a case where the type of action, caliber, or type of weapon has made a difference in a justifiable or non-justified shooting. If your life is in danger and you act to protect your life I just want to see where these internet stories can show me a case where it mattered what you protected yourself with. It doesn't matter if it's a 12 ga or a tire iron. If you're justified then the weapon isn't the issue. If it's non-justified then the weapon isn't going to matter either.
 
MIM = Metal Injection Molding
The modern way of producing intricate or close tolerance parts.

Not considered the equivalent of a properly tempered tool steel forging.
 
Yes. MIM= powdered metal. We used to refer to it as pot metal. What really matters is the quality. My Colt Trooper MKIII has 0 problems after years of duty use and casual plinking. My similar M65-3 has had problems with MIM. The trigger has had air pockets. I do have a decent (so far) trigger installed now. It works fine. Tuning is tricky though. I went through air pockets when attempting to smooth and polish a few. Manfacturers went to MIM as a costcutting measure. Fine for them and us when they make good MIM casts. I guess they could X-ray parts but, that costs money. It is easier to market a lifetime warranty than gaurantee a lifetime of service. I would pay more for quality and give up the warranty.
 
S&W used to make the Model 14 in SA for target shooting. I would recommend an older K frame because of the lower mass of the cylinder, a Military & Police, or M10 should fit also the role as a back-up weapon in a cowboy match better than a stainless steel version.
 
Ayoob has referenced numerous cases of attempts to hang people with the "thumb-cocking" tactic. The one that comes to mind for me was the FL case where a police officer had to shoot a perp who was trying to run him down with a motorcycle. This occurred in the '80s, IIRC. It was the one that led to riots in FL. Afterward, many PDs had their revolvers modified to DAO configuration, out of fear of liability suits. Remember, there are lawyers (thankfully, not all) who will stoop to any tactic to "get" a law-abiding gun owner, especially if (s)he has any assets.
 
"The one that comes to mind for me was the FL case where a police officer had to shoot a perp who was trying to run him down with a motorcycle. "

But was that shooting justified? Did the type of weapon used or method used make the shooting justified or non-justified? Sounds like it would have been a good shoot regardless if SA or DA mode if the officer believed his life was in danger. That's the point I'm asking. I would like to see a case where one action or the other made a difference in a justified case. If a person's life is in danger then the mode of action, nor type of weapon, doesn't matter.
Anybody can sue anyone for anything. I've gone to fed court twice on justified use of force. So suits don't bother me. I was justified using the force necessary at the time.
 
I know many people who listens, reads and respects old Mas, but he is making quite a living saying things that have absolutely nothing to back him up. Some where in time he has become a legend in his own mind. How he attainded that status is beyond a lot of people.
There's an old saying, If you can't dazzle them with brillance then baffle them with bulls#$%!!!
 
I think I will drop it!

My impression of M.A. and his writings is that he is trying to give advice to CIVILIAN gun owners that do not have a degree in LE, to keep them out of a jam. If what he says does not apply to LE, fine. Police are assumed to know how to apply lethal force, and joe blow can go buy a gun anyday and use it for defense without knowing much. So if someone does not like him, do as you wish. I have no stake in whatever anyone wants to do to a gun to make it what they want. But I still think there is room to learn. I saw a man and his wife go into a gunshop for a defense gun one time and talk to an eager salesman. They left with a stainless Ruger 44 blackhawk for home defense.....Oh well.
 
Mr Ayoob gives the cases he references; he is one of the most highly sought-after expert witnesses on defensive firearms use in the country today. In fact, if a person goes through his Lethal Force Institute course, he will appear in court for that person at no charge if (s)he is indicted for self-defense with a gun.

That said, if a shooting is clearly justified as self-defence, many lawyers will go after the person in a civil court, where the case can be made much fuzzier. This is where the attorneys try to use such things as cocking, gun type even ammo used to portray the shooter as irresponsible and dangerous. Before a jury ignorant of firearms or defensive issues, they can ruin a person's life. Remember in this setting, the goal is not right or wrong (tragically) but to make money and/or score political points, not to mention establish legal precedents.
 
As for all this legality stuff, let me say that everyone I've asked (lawyers, retired FBI, Sheriff deputies, etc) said the same thing. They've never heard of DA/SA being an issue nor factory/reloads ever coming up (they just check to make sure you weren't using armor-piercing ammo), if it was a justified shoot, then it was a justified shoot, case closed.

They also (lawyer really emphasised this) said that for a civilian, the civil case following the criminal case is usually what does them in. That's where the relatives of the poor, underprivaledged meth dealer that tried to carjack you can turn on the waterworks and tell everyone what a great boy Tyrone was. . .
 
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