Best concentricity sizing method I have used
- Thread starter hounddawg
- Start date
I don't think any thing physically or mechanically has changed with bolt action rifles.
Maxwell Haus
Moderator
Sometimes you just have to pull over and let others go by .
It likely would by the amount of clearance in the threads
I do not doubt you are correct. And,I admit,I've never examined the tooling to make brass or jacketed bullets.
I'm curious...are the die and press designs different enough that anything about a 7/8 -14 reloading die in a reloading press is relevant?
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Modern cartridge making
https://www.google.com/search?q=Hor...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Tour the Hornady plant.
Ask them if they o-ring their dies.
I've toured several plants, none used O-rings. Dies are much the same as what's used for reloading. Several are used for each case or bullet type several inches apart as a train of case or bullet holders moves under them.
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/technical-information/drawing-brass/
https://www.google.com/search?q=Hor...droid-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Tour the Hornady plant.
Ask them if they o-ring their dies.
I've toured several plants, none used O-rings. Dies are much the same as what's used for reloading. Several are used for each case or bullet type several inches apart as a train of case or bullet holders moves under them.
https://www.petersoncartridge.com/technical-information/drawing-brass/
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I watched he videos. Thanks.
I did see punch presses. I have done a little work with punch press die frames.
Not much.
I've mostly worked with plastic injection molds.
Generally,a press has a couple of platens.The die frame rests on the platens
The die frame will have two (or more) plates the die components rest on...dead length.They usually have a head or shoulder on them. A retainer plate has pockets ,holes,and frames to fit over and retain the die components.
Nothing is threaded in with lock rings.Nothing is adjustable.Its just made right,to size,or its made over.
I didn;t see tooling detail enough to say for sure,but I did not see screw in dies,or lock rings,and I'd agree,probably no O-rings.
I did not develop or test the O-ring idea.FWIW Lee sells lock rings with O-ring grooves.
And this will take you to the book that recommended the technique of using the o-ring for straight and concentric handloads.
Bart,I don't know enough to argue the point.Maybe you could argue with the authors.
https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sh...ks&sprefix=Precision+Shooting+,aps,252&sr=1-3
I just noticed from the date of the book ,1998,that I was pursuing handload accuracy at that level ,(which is pretty good ammo,not bench rest ammo)
23 years ago. Cataracts got bad.I couldn't see well enough to shoot good enough it made any difference. I try to pass on what I haven't forgot.
Its like buying audiophile grade stereo equiptment when I'm half deaf
I sold off my pair of Macintosh MC-240 tube stereo amps. They sounded better than I could hear.
I did see punch presses. I have done a little work with punch press die frames.
Not much.
I've mostly worked with plastic injection molds.
Generally,a press has a couple of platens.The die frame rests on the platens
The die frame will have two (or more) plates the die components rest on...dead length.They usually have a head or shoulder on them. A retainer plate has pockets ,holes,and frames to fit over and retain the die components.
Nothing is threaded in with lock rings.Nothing is adjustable.Its just made right,to size,or its made over.
I didn;t see tooling detail enough to say for sure,but I did not see screw in dies,or lock rings,and I'd agree,probably no O-rings.
I did not develop or test the O-ring idea.FWIW Lee sells lock rings with O-ring grooves.
And this will take you to the book that recommended the technique of using the o-ring for straight and concentric handloads.
Bart,I don't know enough to argue the point.Maybe you could argue with the authors.
https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Sh...ks&sprefix=Precision+Shooting+,aps,252&sr=1-3
I just noticed from the date of the book ,1998,that I was pursuing handload accuracy at that level ,(which is pretty good ammo,not bench rest ammo)
23 years ago. Cataracts got bad.I couldn't see well enough to shoot good enough it made any difference. I try to pass on what I haven't forgot.
Its like buying audiophile grade stereo equiptment when I'm half deaf
I sold off my pair of Macintosh MC-240 tube stereo amps. They sounded better than I could hear.
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I never said O-rings were required .
I said I found a tip in Precision Shooting Magazine's 1998 Handbook,authored by David Brennan.The link to an Amazon ad identifying the book is above,
I passed on the suggestion I found there.
Talk it over with him.
You ask a question,I have the respect to answer,the arguement escalates.
I never wanted an arguement in the first place.
This really isn't worth the time.
I wasn't asking you directly, just a general question for all.
Already answered. Steel stronger than brass, should be fairly easy to grasp.
Originally Posted by hounddawg View Post
I honestly don't think squaring the dies has much to do with it if you are using a full length non bushing sizing die. When that piece if brass is fully enclosed in the die it has no choice except to be concentric.
Would agree with the brass that is fully enclosed in body of the die. Would not agree that means any brass outside of the die is concentric with the brass inside of the die, which is the point being addressed by squaring your dies.
https://www.sierrabullets.com/reload...ing-depriming/
"Squaring Dies
One facet of die adjustment that is seldom mentioned is “squaring “ the die The industry standard for reloading dies is a 7/8 x14 thread. Virtually all U.S. reloading equipment manufacturers thread dies and presses for this pitch. This is coarse enough to allow for fairly rapid die installation and removal in reloading presses, but is still fine enough to maintain a good degree of precision and alignment in assembly. Unfortunately, in many instances, there will still be some misalignment between the ram/shell holder and the die body.
Carbide dies, such as this Titanium Carbide set from Redding, eliminate the requirement for lubricating straight-walled cases prior to sizing.
To square your dies, start by following the adjustment procedures outlined above, up to the point of locking the die. Rather than merely snugging the lock ring down against the top of the press and locking it, the dies are squared by lowering the ram slightly, and placing a flat machined washer between the die body and the shell holder. Raise the ram slowly, until the washer is putting light to moderate pressure on the bottom of the die. This will remove the play from the threads, while the flat washer helps to hold the die body square against the shell holder. Maintaining pressure on the die body, now lower the lock ring, and lock the die firmly in place.
This procedure applies to both sizing and seating dies, but should not be used with either carbide sizing dies or benchrest/competition seating dies. You will find that dies that have been squared in this manner will be somewhat difficult to remove from the press. If the lock ring must be loosened to remove the dies, simply repeat the process the next time you set up to reload. The time this procedure takes to perform is minimal, and we feel the results are well worth the effort."
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I don't think there is not much brass outside of the die when the ram is up. Looks like there was contact of some degree all the way down to the extractor groove. Do you think it is bending the case head ? I would think any concentricity issues would be occurring in area of the neck shoulder junction anyway
Now once that ram starts down it is a different story, anything dragging on the inside of the neck could bend that neck out of parallel if the rim was tilting against the top of the shellholder. Get rid of those expander balls, that is where concentricity issue are being created. Think about what happens when that sase is being sized with a expander ball and when and where stress is being put on the neck/shoulder junction
I use a Lee turret there is a considerable amount of float just in the die holder. Same thing applies for the users of coaxial presses. If die float caused concentricity issues for me and anyone else that used a coaxial press the concentricity issues would be horrible.
however I never get more than .0015 and 90% of my loaded rounds have less than .001. How many can honestly make that claim
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It is pretty easy to determine how far a certain die sizes down the case body, and none of mine size down to the extractor groove unless the die or shell holder is modified. As your pictures amply demonstrate.
My understanding is Coaxial press's allow the die to square up on it's own. Perhaps google this advantage. It makes a case for how concentric brass is when sized in a coaxial press, and the possible advantage of squaring sizing dies. Whidden even makes special floating tool head holder for some Dillion presses.
https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/floating-dillon-toolheads-2/
Am not familiar with your press, but NO ONE ever said die float CAUSED issues with concentrically, only that it can help alleviate it. Can only wonder what benefit there is to twisting words like that.
If your turret press has float in the die holder, and your rounds are concentric, you just made a case for floating (squaring) dies in presses without floating die holders. However i would consider that an advantage to that specific press/process that may help others.
Helping others or learning may be why most of us are here. Squaring dies is not a new concept, and is extremely well documented.
Not all presses are the same. My Rockchucker does not have a floating die holder, or allow a locked down die to float (square up), so i float it before locking it up.
The possibility of case necks being pulled off line by the expansion ball is well documented, and not what was being discussed. However, there are possibilities of alleviating that also by allowing the expanding ball to float until well up in the case (self align) before locking it in, using one of the floating carbide expanding balls, not using an expanding ball at all but using a plug. Personally i don't even use an expanding ball unless the case is going to be trimmed. Just replace it with an undersized one so the primers are ejected. When occasionally using an expanding plug, you bet i allow it to float a little before locking it down, or just allowing it to float a little.
Some might even notice a pattern of using opposing forces to self align or square physical objects, rather than depending solely on a machined plus or minus mechanical fit.
My understanding is Coaxial press's allow the die to square up on it's own. Perhaps google this advantage. It makes a case for how concentric brass is when sized in a coaxial press, and the possible advantage of squaring sizing dies. Whidden even makes special floating tool head holder for some Dillion presses.
https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/floating-dillon-toolheads-2/
Am not familiar with your press, but NO ONE ever said die float CAUSED issues with concentrically, only that it can help alleviate it. Can only wonder what benefit there is to twisting words like that.
If your turret press has float in the die holder, and your rounds are concentric, you just made a case for floating (squaring) dies in presses without floating die holders. However i would consider that an advantage to that specific press/process that may help others.
Helping others or learning may be why most of us are here. Squaring dies is not a new concept, and is extremely well documented.
Not all presses are the same. My Rockchucker does not have a floating die holder, or allow a locked down die to float (square up), so i float it before locking it up.
The possibility of case necks being pulled off line by the expansion ball is well documented, and not what was being discussed. However, there are possibilities of alleviating that also by allowing the expanding ball to float until well up in the case (self align) before locking it in, using one of the floating carbide expanding balls, not using an expanding ball at all but using a plug. Personally i don't even use an expanding ball unless the case is going to be trimmed. Just replace it with an undersized one so the primers are ejected. When occasionally using an expanding plug, you bet i allow it to float a little before locking it down, or just allowing it to float a little.
Some might even notice a pattern of using opposing forces to self align or square physical objects, rather than depending solely on a machined plus or minus mechanical fit.
In a conventional resizing die,I agree with Hounddawg,its all done with one reamer. The die body geometry will be coaxial.
The case head can be out of square. Thats most like a problem with the rifle,not the resizing process. I would not count on resizing to correct it.
Drawimg the neck over the expander ball is the most likely place to induce problems,
At one time,Forster offered a service to hone out the neck portion of the die to minimize the amount of work the expander plug as to do.
Brushing the neck clean and a little Imperial Dry Neck lube also is helpful.
Years ago Hornady sold elliptical carbide expander plugs. They even sold an RCBS conversion spindle. They probably still do.
Minimizing force required to expand the necks is a good effort.
I'll leave bench rest tech like neck turning to the bench resters. Its a good idea to verify neck thickness uniformity.
I think we have covered most of what can be done sizing.
Bullet seating can definitely make for crooked ammo.
Here is what I am aware of.
Necks trimmed square.
ID and OD chamfer. The VLD chamfer does not hurt. Case mouth biting into the bullet is not good.
No exessive neck tension.
IMO,the floating sleeve dies help.
Keep your shellholder clean. Sometimes a powder kernel sticks there.
Ammo boxes are better than coffee cans at keeping it straight. Sitting on hip pocket rounds is not good.
Seater punch must be appropriate to bullet,
The case head can be out of square. Thats most like a problem with the rifle,not the resizing process. I would not count on resizing to correct it.
Drawimg the neck over the expander ball is the most likely place to induce problems,
At one time,Forster offered a service to hone out the neck portion of the die to minimize the amount of work the expander plug as to do.
Brushing the neck clean and a little Imperial Dry Neck lube also is helpful.
Years ago Hornady sold elliptical carbide expander plugs. They even sold an RCBS conversion spindle. They probably still do.
Minimizing force required to expand the necks is a good effort.
I'll leave bench rest tech like neck turning to the bench resters. Its a good idea to verify neck thickness uniformity.
I think we have covered most of what can be done sizing.
Bullet seating can definitely make for crooked ammo.
Here is what I am aware of.
Necks trimmed square.
ID and OD chamfer. The VLD chamfer does not hurt. Case mouth biting into the bullet is not good.
No exessive neck tension.
IMO,the floating sleeve dies help.
Keep your shellholder clean. Sometimes a powder kernel sticks there.
Ammo boxes are better than coffee cans at keeping it straight. Sitting on hip pocket rounds is not good.
Seater punch must be appropriate to bullet,
well HiBC I agree with everything in that post. I will add in that deburring the case before sizing is a good idea.
Uniform neck thickness is crucial and while neck sizing is scary the first time, it really is not difficult or very costly to do and it is a one time thing.Deburring before every sizing helps to get those necks as uniform as possible also
@zeke - Where would misalignment of the bullet occur ? at the neck shoulder junction or at the web of the case. Looking at the pics you will see the die made contact all the way to the web where the brass is thickest and does not expand much if any on firing. In places it made contact all the way to the extractor groove.
The only reason I brought up the float in the Lee Turret and co ax's is because of the discussion on the rubber O rings. The O rings allow a bit of extra flex for dies that are mounted in more rigid single stage presses. To me it is un nescesssary because the shell holders allow for a good bit of float
A case entering the die has to have some float to allow it to position itself inline with the die. Both cannot be completely rigid otherwise they would have to line up exactly or damage to the brass would occur
Again the amount of time and care devoted to case prep is up to the individual shooter and their goals. Unless you are trying to for sub .5 MOA accuracy none of this needs to be done
Uniform neck thickness is crucial and while neck sizing is scary the first time, it really is not difficult or very costly to do and it is a one time thing.Deburring before every sizing helps to get those necks as uniform as possible also
@zeke - Where would misalignment of the bullet occur ? at the neck shoulder junction or at the web of the case. Looking at the pics you will see the die made contact all the way to the web where the brass is thickest and does not expand much if any on firing. In places it made contact all the way to the extractor groove.
The only reason I brought up the float in the Lee Turret and co ax's is because of the discussion on the rubber O rings. The O rings allow a bit of extra flex for dies that are mounted in more rigid single stage presses. To me it is un nescesssary because the shell holders allow for a good bit of float
A case entering the die has to have some float to allow it to position itself inline with the die. Both cannot be completely rigid otherwise they would have to line up exactly or damage to the brass would occur
Again the amount of time and care devoted to case prep is up to the individual shooter and their goals. Unless you are trying to for sub .5 MOA accuracy none of this needs to be done
hounddawg: "The only reason I brought up the float in the Lee Turret and co ax's is because of the discussion on the rubber O rings. The O rings allow a bit of extra flex for dies that are mounted in more rigid single stage presses. To me it is un nescesssary because the shell holders allow for a good bit of float"
Sounds eerily familiar to allowing sizing dies to float, and:
zeke: "Not all presses are the same. My Rockchucker does not have a floating die holder, or allow a locked down die to float (square up), so i float it before locking it up."
Apparently we now agree with possible benefit of squaring up dies? The dies am using for precision loads do not have an oring.
No doubt case necks being concentric to most of the case body is certainly a major benefit. Is there a benefit to the case base being aligned with the case body? If there isn't, what is the benefit to the orings?
Squaring up dies for presses that lock die the sizing dies is very fast, no expense. The simple process may not help some, it certainly is not a cure all.
Sounds eerily familiar to allowing sizing dies to float, and:
zeke: "Not all presses are the same. My Rockchucker does not have a floating die holder, or allow a locked down die to float (square up), so i float it before locking it up."
Apparently we now agree with possible benefit of squaring up dies? The dies am using for precision loads do not have an oring.
No doubt case necks being concentric to most of the case body is certainly a major benefit. Is there a benefit to the case base being aligned with the case body? If there isn't, what is the benefit to the orings?
Squaring up dies for presses that lock die the sizing dies is very fast, no expense. The simple process may not help some, it certainly is not a cure all.