Bersa, Makarov, CZ. Low cost high quality, but which one?
- Thread starter Dangus
- Start date
Blowback pistols generate more felt recoil than locked breech pistols. My Mak has a little more kick to it than my Glock 26 (9mm). However, the recoil of the Mak is entirely tolerable and, provided the pistol isn't too small or light (Bersa!), I would not worry about the recoil of a blowback. Persons who complain about recoil in the Mak have not replaced the stock grips with Pearcegrips (a necessity) and are shooting TCW/Wolf ammo, which is hotter than it needs to be unless you are looking for penetration against persons covered in layers of seal furs. (Wolf ammo is Russian military ammo.) I find Corbons in my EG Mak with Pearcegrips entirely comfortable, but perhaps I can't afford to shoot enough Corbons to make my hand hurt. Anyway, blowbacks are fine provided the pistol isn't too light.
The difference between .380 ACP and 9X18 is pretty small, especially when considering Corbons for hollowpoints.
The difference between .380 ACP and 9X18 is pretty small, especially when considering Corbons for hollowpoints.
To further convince you to join the fold of the Makniks let me propose some math, don't worry it's not fuzzy Washington math.
Uinssued military Bulgie Mak (two matching numbered mags, holster and cleaning rod) from www.jcarmocy.com $155 shipped
FFL transfer and handling fee, $20
Uncle MIke's IWB and Pearce grips from www.midway.com $23 delivered
Total, $198
If you're on a really tight budget, you can get a slightly used military Bulgie for $120 (plus shipping) from www.aimsurplus.com
500 rounds Bernaul or TCW ammo from Dan's Sporting Goods, $54 delivered
As others have said there are also the EG Maks, which are great. IMHO the Bulgies, after some two hundred rounds get as smooth as the EGs, and the finish on the military Bulgies is a deep blue, not the painted on black on some of the commercial Bulgies.
You can get great prices on new ammo (he might even have unissued Bulgies for less than J Armory) from Dan's:
Dan's Sporting Goods
Phone: 724-727-2648
Fax: 724-727-2649
dansportammo@alltel.net
Then there's the priceless feeling of owning history that comes with a Mak. Just think of the days past when the dreaded KGB knocked down doors with Maks in hand, when the SovBlock officers swaggered on the parade grounds with Maks, when...OK, you get the picture.
From JC Armory's web page
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited October 13, 2000).]
Uinssued military Bulgie Mak (two matching numbered mags, holster and cleaning rod) from www.jcarmocy.com $155 shipped
FFL transfer and handling fee, $20
Uncle MIke's IWB and Pearce grips from www.midway.com $23 delivered
Total, $198
If you're on a really tight budget, you can get a slightly used military Bulgie for $120 (plus shipping) from www.aimsurplus.com
500 rounds Bernaul or TCW ammo from Dan's Sporting Goods, $54 delivered
As others have said there are also the EG Maks, which are great. IMHO the Bulgies, after some two hundred rounds get as smooth as the EGs, and the finish on the military Bulgies is a deep blue, not the painted on black on some of the commercial Bulgies.
You can get great prices on new ammo (he might even have unissued Bulgies for less than J Armory) from Dan's:
Dan's Sporting Goods
Phone: 724-727-2648
Fax: 724-727-2649
dansportammo@alltel.net
Then there's the priceless feeling of owning history that comes with a Mak. Just think of the days past when the dreaded KGB knocked down doors with Maks in hand, when the SovBlock officers swaggered on the parade grounds with Maks, when...OK, you get the picture.
From JC Armory's web page
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
[This message has been edited by Tecolote (edited October 13, 2000).]
I'm probably going to get flamed with this reply but I totally dissagree with the Mak.
Sure, I like the way it handles, shoots, and feels. And, I like the price. But I don't like the ammo. Unless you want to stockpile some ammo for the Mak you'll be hunting aroung for it. I even went to the Springfield Mass gun show this weekend and couldn't find 9 x 18 ammo for it. I found stuff for rifles 90 years old but no 9 x 18. I could, however find .380 ammo in just about every conceivable combination there was. Frankly, .380+P+ doesn't do much more than an .380 when you come right down to it. These pistols are for close combat/defense situations, fellas. So, you need something that is reliable, repairable, and easy to shoot.
I decided on the Bersa. I've got two: a Thunder and a model 86 with a 13 shot clip. You can't do better for cost, performance, and short range IMHO. Even my 17 year old daughter loves this pistol and blows the center out at 21' and hits the target with every round at 75'.
As for reliability, both Bersas have been nothing but excellent. They eat just about anything I feed them, their recoil is easy to deal with, the trigger is acceptible, and the grip is just about perfect. They're easy to clean, too.
I'll own a Mak very soon but only as a pistol with some historical interest and something fun to shoot. If I'm interested in daily carry, however, the Bersa does the job and I can pick up ammo anywhere ammo is sold. In addition, I'll have a choice with the ammo I buy. And before you start telling me how good the Wolf or other import ammo is, I love my SKS and shoot Wolf all the time with it. I don't like the Wolf or other Russian ammo for pistols, however. It is really dirty and a little too "rough edged" for a small pistol.
So, Dangus, a Bersa 380 is what I'd go with. When I bought my last one, I held the MAk, a PPK, and the Bersa and decided on the Bersa all the way. This was a very subjective decision but I think well founded. Taking into consideration all the details I'd have to go with the Bersa each an every time.
FWIW: I even called Bersa's warrantee department which is down South somewhere and they told me if anything goes wrong with the pistol that they'd fix it for zip. So, how can you go wrong with that?
Rome
Sure, I like the way it handles, shoots, and feels. And, I like the price. But I don't like the ammo. Unless you want to stockpile some ammo for the Mak you'll be hunting aroung for it. I even went to the Springfield Mass gun show this weekend and couldn't find 9 x 18 ammo for it. I found stuff for rifles 90 years old but no 9 x 18. I could, however find .380 ammo in just about every conceivable combination there was. Frankly, .380+P+ doesn't do much more than an .380 when you come right down to it. These pistols are for close combat/defense situations, fellas. So, you need something that is reliable, repairable, and easy to shoot.
I decided on the Bersa. I've got two: a Thunder and a model 86 with a 13 shot clip. You can't do better for cost, performance, and short range IMHO. Even my 17 year old daughter loves this pistol and blows the center out at 21' and hits the target with every round at 75'.
As for reliability, both Bersas have been nothing but excellent. They eat just about anything I feed them, their recoil is easy to deal with, the trigger is acceptible, and the grip is just about perfect. They're easy to clean, too.
I'll own a Mak very soon but only as a pistol with some historical interest and something fun to shoot. If I'm interested in daily carry, however, the Bersa does the job and I can pick up ammo anywhere ammo is sold. In addition, I'll have a choice with the ammo I buy. And before you start telling me how good the Wolf or other import ammo is, I love my SKS and shoot Wolf all the time with it. I don't like the Wolf or other Russian ammo for pistols, however. It is really dirty and a little too "rough edged" for a small pistol.
So, Dangus, a Bersa 380 is what I'd go with. When I bought my last one, I held the MAk, a PPK, and the Bersa and decided on the Bersa all the way. This was a very subjective decision but I think well founded. Taking into consideration all the details I'd have to go with the Bersa each an every time.
FWIW: I even called Bersa's warrantee department which is down South somewhere and they told me if anything goes wrong with the pistol that they'd fix it for zip. So, how can you go wrong with that?
Rome
Rome,
Every table that sells ammo at every show that I've been too has had 9x18 for sale. All the shops in my area carry it. The chain stores don't, but they also don't carry 303 Enfield or other types of "non-popular ammo." Like I said above, you can buy 500 rounds of ammo delivered for $54, that's $5.40 per box of 50.
I've got nothing against Bersas. Some are excellent and by your post you happened upon some good ones. There are also some rats out there. I came across one, a Thunder 90?, that would jam on most FMJ. It only liked S&B for some reason. Never had this problem with Maks. They've always fed everything, from surplus EG corrosive ammo to hot Norinco loads and Corbons.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
Every table that sells ammo at every show that I've been too has had 9x18 for sale. All the shops in my area carry it. The chain stores don't, but they also don't carry 303 Enfield or other types of "non-popular ammo." Like I said above, you can buy 500 rounds of ammo delivered for $54, that's $5.40 per box of 50.
I've got nothing against Bersas. Some are excellent and by your post you happened upon some good ones. There are also some rats out there. I came across one, a Thunder 90?, that would jam on most FMJ. It only liked S&B for some reason. Never had this problem with Maks. They've always fed everything, from surplus EG corrosive ammo to hot Norinco loads and Corbons.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
the mak is a very nice pistol for the money. but i must take issue with 2 statements
1)reliablity of the .380 vs the 9x19
my .380 mak will take and feed anything i load into the mag (unlike my 230sig or walther). not one ftf since i have owned it (2.5yrs) it has adj sites and drops them right on target. i had one of you ipsc guys shoot it, as he had never heard or seen one. he ran 2 mags through it then went and looked at his target.
impressed with the mak in .380 would be an understatement. outside of the "limited visibility" of the front sight his words, he was going to invest in one for grins
2)ammo accesability. the .380 can be found anywhere even hardware stores that stock hunting items (tne 50+yr old mom &pop around the corner from me carries it!)+-
outside of a few (and i mean few)gunstores and gun shows 9x18 is not an everyday stocking item.
and why buy (to me)an oddball caliber. when if you have to have 9mm, just buy 9x19
or carry +p .380 or some of the p/defense ammo like hydra-shok, triton etc?
1)reliablity of the .380 vs the 9x19
my .380 mak will take and feed anything i load into the mag (unlike my 230sig or walther). not one ftf since i have owned it (2.5yrs) it has adj sites and drops them right on target. i had one of you ipsc guys shoot it, as he had never heard or seen one. he ran 2 mags through it then went and looked at his target.
impressed with the mak in .380 would be an understatement. outside of the "limited visibility" of the front sight his words, he was going to invest in one for grins
2)ammo accesability. the .380 can be found anywhere even hardware stores that stock hunting items (tne 50+yr old mom &pop around the corner from me carries it!)+-
outside of a few (and i mean few)gunstores and gun shows 9x18 is not an everyday stocking item.
and why buy (to me)an oddball caliber. when if you have to have 9mm, just buy 9x19
or carry +p .380 or some of the p/defense ammo like hydra-shok, triton etc?
I don't think any of these are bad choices. I'd also mention the FEG PA-63 pistols as another inexpensive alternative (dealer cost is about $20-$30 less than a Bulgarian Mak). They hold one round less, and aren't as comfortable (in my hand, at least) as a Mak, but they are about 4 ounces lighter and mine works fine. They also have a push-button magazine release, and look like a Walther PP. Same 9x18 cartridge as the Mak.
One other comment. I keep reading posts on the different gun forums to the effect that the East German Maks are so much nicer than the Bulgarians. I'm not convinced. I got an "excellent" Bulgarian from J&G Sales for $110. It looked nearly new, is well-made, and works great.
After reading so many comments about how great the East Germans are, I decided I'd have to get one. A local store got a big shipment (at least 30-40 in the display case). Some of them looked pristine through the glass. A friend and I went down intent on buying a pair. We looked at several of the nicer ones. None impressed me as being quite as nice as my Bulgarian. There was always some flaw (a bit of rust, a ding, etc.). Anyway, maybe it was just the condition of this particular batch, but we both decided to get Bulgarians instead. He ordered his and it looks and shoots great. I plan to get my second one soon. Maybe I'll get an East German someday as well, but don't assume that just because its EG it is going to be a better gun than the Bulgarians.
Doug
One other comment. I keep reading posts on the different gun forums to the effect that the East German Maks are so much nicer than the Bulgarians. I'm not convinced. I got an "excellent" Bulgarian from J&G Sales for $110. It looked nearly new, is well-made, and works great.
After reading so many comments about how great the East Germans are, I decided I'd have to get one. A local store got a big shipment (at least 30-40 in the display case). Some of them looked pristine through the glass. A friend and I went down intent on buying a pair. We looked at several of the nicer ones. None impressed me as being quite as nice as my Bulgarian. There was always some flaw (a bit of rust, a ding, etc.). Anyway, maybe it was just the condition of this particular batch, but we both decided to get Bulgarians instead. He ordered his and it looks and shoots great. I plan to get my second one soon. Maybe I'll get an East German someday as well, but don't assume that just because its EG it is going to be a better gun than the Bulgarians.
Doug
DougB,
I fully agree with your post. I prefer the unissued military Bulgie Maks, because they're new, the quality is very high, they've been 100% reliable, and after a few hundred rounds they get very smooth.
I want an EG as a piece of history, but for everyday defense I'm partial to the military Bulgies.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
I fully agree with your post. I prefer the unissued military Bulgie Maks, because they're new, the quality is very high, they've been 100% reliable, and after a few hundred rounds they get very smooth.
I want an EG as a piece of history, but for everyday defense I'm partial to the military Bulgies.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
I own a Makarov and they are great guns, if you mail order you can get ammo cheap. I went to a gun show and bought some Russian surplus stuff for $6 a box. It is very hot and shoots a 109 grain bullet instead of the usual 95 gr. .380 is easier to find in the general sporting goods type stores. If you can find a CZ-83 for under 200 bucks go for it, but I think they are more than that. Other options to consider....
Used .357 revolvers Smiths or Rugers...
Kel-Tec P-11 9mm saw some used ones the other day for $169 - No personal experience but some people really like them.
Used Ruger semi auto - you may be able to find them for just over $200 and they are built like tanks. They are pretty cheap brand new.
You really can't go wrong with the Maks. Mine is a Russian model and it feeds anything. Have had ZERO failures of any kind.
Happy Shopping!
Used .357 revolvers Smiths or Rugers...
Kel-Tec P-11 9mm saw some used ones the other day for $169 - No personal experience but some people really like them.
Used Ruger semi auto - you may be able to find them for just over $200 and they are built like tanks. They are pretty cheap brand new.
You really can't go wrong with the Maks. Mine is a Russian model and it feeds anything. Have had ZERO failures of any kind.
Happy Shopping!
I've been looking at these guns pretty closely, too.... and at these prices I think that I will soon have a E.G Mak to look at & save for my boy, and a Bulgie to tear up targets! It just seems like a great value, either way.
P.S. - a quick correction to Tecolote's post above - visit Midway @ www.midwayusa.com
Good luck & safe shooting!
------------------
Oak
------------------
"Skeptical scrutiny can separate deep insights from deep nonsense."
P.S. - a quick correction to Tecolote's post above - visit Midway @ www.midwayusa.com
Good luck & safe shooting!
------------------
Oak
------------------
"Skeptical scrutiny can separate deep insights from deep nonsense."
Check out this thread over at Makarov.com-
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=mak12&id=12173.075999874284
Seems the Mak was at or near the top in a little friendly competition...
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=mak12&id=12173.075999874284
Seems the Mak was at or near the top in a little friendly competition...
The Makarov is an interesting option. When I get the money, I think that's the route I'll go. It's too bad they don't make them in 9x19 though.
I could get a CZ-83 pretty cheap, my friend has several and would make an exception for me cause he wants me to start carrying my own gun instead of borrowing or renting, but the Mak looks nice, and he doesn't have one, which will be an easy taunting point, lol.
------------------
The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
I could get a CZ-83 pretty cheap, my friend has several and would make an exception for me cause he wants me to start carrying my own gun instead of borrowing or renting, but the Mak looks nice, and he doesn't have one, which will be an easy taunting point, lol.
------------------
The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
"Well, don't get any of those 'part time ignition devices'"
My part time ignition devices have yet to take a day off. They've chugged through everything without a single problem. Would you consider an AK a part time ignition device? Think of Maks as the AK of handguns, inexpensive, stout, and reliable under the worst conditions.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
My part time ignition devices have yet to take a day off. They've chugged through everything without a single problem. Would you consider an AK a part time ignition device? Think of Maks as the AK of handguns, inexpensive, stout, and reliable under the worst conditions.
------------------
"Get yourself a Pistolet Makarova and lose that pricey western gadget."
I definitely want an automatic.
How safe is the Makarov to carry with a round chambered?
------------------
The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
How safe is the Makarov to carry with a round chambered?
------------------
The Alcove
I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist
The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
Compromising the right position only makes you more wrong.
Plenty safe with one chambered. There is a firing pin block when the safety is on, and it's got a decocking safety as well. I still say, get a hand select EG Mak from AIM, much nicer finish/trigger than the Bulgie. If you change your mind after it's in your hand send it back and they'll either send another EG or a Bulgie, until your satisfied.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BB:
Longshot, East German Maks don't have bulky adjustable sights either.[/quote]
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!
------------------
NRA/GOA/SAF
Former USMC
Oregon residents please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our local "No compromise" chapter of the GOA. http://www.oregonfirearms.org
Longshot, East German Maks don't have bulky adjustable sights either.[/quote]
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!
------------------
NRA/GOA/SAF
Former USMC
Oregon residents please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our local "No compromise" chapter of the GOA. http://www.oregonfirearms.org
Someone whose opinion on guns I trust almost as much as my own ( 
) calls the Makarov "The Pre-Glock Glock". They are pretty amazingly rugged and reliable.
Last I checked, good defense loads in 9x18 are available from Cor-Bon.
------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
) calls the Makarov "The Pre-Glock Glock". They are pretty amazingly rugged and reliable.Last I checked, good defense loads in 9x18 are available from Cor-Bon.
------------------
"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!