I like the idea of a Glock 42 as I am quite fond of my Glock 19 already. How well does it handle recoil compared to a similar sized 9mm? A lot of people keeping saying that the M&P 9c or the Shield are my best bets, but I had a chance to have one in hand the other day and wasn't overjoyed. The gun just doesn't fit my hand at all. I like the bodyguard, but DAO is just totally off-putting outside of a good wheel gun.
Bersa .380 combat or other .380?
- Thread starter MMitch
- Start date
The Bersas are blow back operated, are they not? How does recoil and slide stiffness compare to the Beretta .380s? I can't get it out of my head that one can shop around a bit and find a used Beretta 84 or 85 for not much more than a new Bersa. I guess I'm revealing some prejudice towards Beretta.
I think it's a little sad that we fight like this on a public forum. So many forces try to limit our freedom and we need not give them any ammo to do so. I'm a young guy and I'd like the second amendment to remain around until I have children. So please, treat each other kindly no matter what your opinion is.
the G42 makes the .380 a breeze even for novice women shooters. there are plenty of youtube videos showing just this. the fit of the gun for will not be the same as for your fiancé unless you both have the same sized hands. you can add a grip sleeve to increase the girth if desired for yourself, even a magazine base plate that adds an extra round. the controls as about as simple as you can get from a semiauto.
Mitch, my son has a 42 and I've shot it several times. It's very easy to handle. Feel good in smaller hands of which I have. As for the Shield, I carried one for years but replaced it recently with a Walther PPS-M2 and am happy I did so. The Shield is a heck of a good gun, but not easy to rack. I've developed arthritis in my hands and found that the PPS-M2 racks a LOT easier and smoother. More solid as well. I feel it shoots every bit as well or better than my Shield. I've never shot the S&W Body Guard but I know a lot of folks who complain about the trigger and racking the slide on that gun.
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From to time to time I carry a Ruger LCP. It is a very nice gun but can be a little snappy when fired. Someone mentioned a Glock 42 which would be a wonderful choice. But I would look real hard at the Glock 43. You will find 9mm is much cheaper to shoot then 380. Plus a lot more bullet weight choices.
oldfart1944 said:
Or it may be that ownership in based on preference.
I have owned examples of the classic Walther PP in both .32 and .380 which were surprisingly uncomfortable to shoot, even with their size and weight. At least to me, the recoil of a blowback .380 feels very much like the recoil of a locked-breech 9mm of similar size and weight. So, as to a Bersa .380, I would rather have a sub-compact 9mm.
Locked-breech .380s have substantially less felt recoil than their blowback counterparts. I was astonished by the mild recoil when I first shot a S&W Bodyguard .380 and I continue to be delighted by the minimal recoil of my wife's Ruger LC380.
carguychris
New member
Most double-stack .380s are about the same width or slightly wider than a G19. The .380 cartridge is only slightly smaller in diameter than 9x19, so the magazine is only marginally thinner, and the use of a metal frame and separate screw-on grip panels on most double-stack .380s results in a thicker grip than with a single-piece polymer frame.MMitch said:
9x19 or 9mm Parabellum, often abbreviated as 9mm Para, less frequently as 9mmP.TailGator said:
FWIW the term "9mm Long" is not used due to potential confusion with 9x20mm Browning Long, which is obsolescent but is still sporadically produced.
I heartily concur, and I feel a little silly for having totally forgotten about this pistol when I wrote my earlier responses.JERRYS. said:
The OTHER way to lessen recoil is to increase weight. Recoil is the result of acceleration in reaction to a force. Force = mass * acceleration, so to lessen the acceleration, you either decrease force or increase mass.oldfart1944 said:
Additionally, much of the discussion in this thread concerns FELT recoil, which is affected by a bunch of added variables such as grip shape and action type.
Slide stiffness is comparable, but the Bersas are a little easier to operate because there's more surface area to grasp; this is an aspect where the Beretta-trademark open-top slide is at a disadvantage.TailGator said:
I have not shot them back-to-back to compare felt recoil.
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Model12Win
Moderator
Don't stick your nose up at a Makarov if looking at the Bersa size guns.
It is a blowback as well, but I have found it much less fatiguing than the old Bersa. It has enough weight and excellent grip geometry to distribute recoil nicely. They are very shootable and compact, and are frankly a much better built and simpler gun than the pot metal Bersa. And there are like-new unissued Bulgarian military Makarovs out there now for the same or less price as a Bersa. It's seriously worth considering, check them out.
It is a blowback as well, but I have found it much less fatiguing than the old Bersa. It has enough weight and excellent grip geometry to distribute recoil nicely. They are very shootable and compact, and are frankly a much better built and simpler gun than the pot metal Bersa. And there are like-new unissued Bulgarian military Makarovs out there now for the same or less price as a Bersa. It's seriously worth considering, check them out.
carguychris
New member
One potential sticking point is capacity.Model12Win said:
Commercial Makarovs were offered in a double-stack version, but they're uncommon in general, and even more uncommon with the original 12-round magazine rather than the Clinton AWB 10-round version. Also, spare magazines for these pistols are notoriously scarce and pricey, again particularly the 12-round ones. And then there's the matter of the tiny and fragile commercial Mak sights.
Although myself and others have been suggesting lower-capacity pistols, due to the dearth of new-production double-stack options, the standard single-stack Mak remains pretty doggone large and heavy in relation to its capacity.
Makarovs are certainly cool pistols though, epitomizing Soviet weapons design philosophy at its best—inexpensive, simple, easy to operate and service, and unbelievably rugged, albeit a bit crude and clumsy.
Just as an amusing footnote, standard single-stack Mak magazines will fit and function in the double-stack pistols due to the latter's unusual 2-into-1 merging magazine design.
This does, of course, largely negate the higher-capacity pistol's advantages.
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Ok, so I've decided on the Polish P-64. Now I need dimensions and where to buy a decent one from. The CIA imports on gun broker look really rough and for the price I don't want to have to do a bunch of bluing work on the gun.
So if you're a makarov guy please tell me everything I should know.
So if you're a makarov guy please tell me everything I should know.
carguychris
New member
The P-64 is a nifty Cold War artifact that's patterned after the Walther PPK. Like that gun, it's slim and easily concealed, but somewhat heavy for its size due to its all-steel construction. Also like the PPK, it has a reputation for being somewhat uncomfortable to shoot, and it's endowed with the heaviest double-action trigger pull this side of the Russian Nagant revolver. (I haven't shot one, so I can't attest to the former, but I can attest to the latter.)MMitch said:
As with all surplus firearms, condition is always a risk, unless you encounter a seller advertising "Like New" or "Unissued" condition. I haven't been monitoring the P-64 market so I don't know if any major sellers are offering such pistols right now. If not, the best bet for finding a high-condition gun is to monitor online auctions and gun shops that specialize in historic firearms.
FWIW in case you haven't already discerned this, the P-64 is NOT a Makarov; it's a distinct Polish design that happens to fire the 9x18 Makarov cartridge. The true Makarov pistol, aka Pistolet Makarov or PM, was a larger and higher-capacity pistol used by the armed forces of the USSR, East Germany, and Bulgaria, and was also imported commercially from Russia before importation was banned. The Russian commercial models were also offered in .380 and (as I previously discussed) in a 12/10-round double-stack version.
Speaking of the 9x18 Makarov cartridge, it's a decent cartridge in its own right, and is somewhat more powerful than .380, but it's not available in a very wide variety of loadings, and big-box discount stores often don't stock it. One issue that sometimes catches shooters off-guard is that most commercial 9x18 ammo is steel-cased, and an increasing number of public ranges are banning steel-case ammo due to its tendency to ricochet, start fires, and damage range equipment. Brass-case copper-jacketed lead 9x18 IS available, but is scarce in some local areas, so you may have to mail-order. If you're like many urban dwellers and you have to shoot at public ranges, I suggest checking their policies before you buy any ammunition, or make any assumptions regarding how much it will cost!
Lastly, I'll be honest—if what I've read and been told about the P-64 is true, your SO is unlikely to enjoy firing it any more than the S&W Airweight.
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carguychris
New member
And if you're not familiar with the cartridge from a reloading standpoint...dean1818 said:
- Despite being named 9mm, it actually uses a 9.2mm/0.365" bullet rather than the standard 9mm/0.355" caliber bullet. This means that commercial bullet selection is limited, and if you roll your own, you'll need dedicated molds.
- Once-fired brass is relatively scarce, so you're most likely going to be scrounging for your fired cases on every range trip (like folks who shoot 10mm Auto, 7.62x25 Tok, 9mm Largo, 7.65 Para, etc).
carguychris
New member
In what way? Are you discussing a government compliance test, or some particularly unsafe aspect of the design?oldfart1944 said:
I'm not trying to belittle you—I'm legitimately curious. I've not seen this concern brought up about the P-64.
carguychris
New member
The similar Walther PP/PPK series usually won't bite you if you use the thumbs-down or "wraparound" grip technique used by many DA revolver shooters, rather than the thumbs-up or thumbs-forward grip often taught for shooting autoloaders. This shifts the web between the thumb and forefinger of the trigger hand further down and away from the slide.MMitch said: