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Berger VLD-Hunting on Hog, Unexpected Result
- Thread starter Double Naught Spy
- Start date
reynolds357
New member
It amazes me that people think hogs are wearing level 4 body armor or something. I shot a good boar a couple weeks ago with my .243 Winchester with 100 gr hornaday whitetail factory loads. He was walking away and I shot him right under his behind hole and killed him. He crawled about 10 yards and flopped around a bit and died. I did not dress him, but the bullet most obviously got to the vitals because a hog that is simply gut shot will run a mile. I am sure he was over 325 lbs.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I have never heard a single person suggest hogs have armor on their "behind hole," lol. What armor they do have isn't much protection against centerfire bullets.
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Well said, TimSr.
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Well said, TimSr.
I've never used a Berger on game and I have never shot a hog.
So,a grain of salt on my comments
When a bullet actually hits the spine,its game over.
A problem with a neckshot,there is more neck than spine.
The reticle was moving as the shot broke.Yes,it was generally in the middle of the neck,COM. But it was a "dynamic" shot.
And apparently,the spine was missed.
You did get an impressive,fist size hole,and through penetration.
But it seemed to be muscle,and,unless I missed something,I did not see a great blood puddle.
That is the risky part of a neck shot.
Before we say the Berger bullet failed...what did it do wrong?
It put a fist size hole through. I don't think a different bullet would have made much difference.I see no failure.It wasa neck shot gone wrong due to imperfect placement.
I overestimated range once on an antelope.Held too high.I just clipped the top of the whithers over the shoulders.The antelope went down like a stone.Maybe an inch higher would have been a miss.I nicked a rib like projecting bone,up from the spine."Dorsal fin". It was good for a knockout,but not a kill.That antelope was recovering as I approached,and needed another shot.
I think the Berger bullet method of kill is to do a classic boiler room heart lung shot through the ribs.That explosive performance can make for dramatic kills there.Heart and lung soup.
Whether that is good for hog hunting,I will leave to the hog hunters.
Truly,for a neck shot,if you manage to hit the spine,a cast bullet or military ball will provide an instant kill if it just penetrates sufficiently.
The spine was missed.The bullet penetrated through,with an impressive wound channel.
What do you want the bullet to do? I'm not advocating for Berger,but I see nothing to criticize here.
So,a grain of salt on my comments
When a bullet actually hits the spine,its game over.
A problem with a neckshot,there is more neck than spine.
The reticle was moving as the shot broke.Yes,it was generally in the middle of the neck,COM. But it was a "dynamic" shot.
And apparently,the spine was missed.
You did get an impressive,fist size hole,and through penetration.
But it seemed to be muscle,and,unless I missed something,I did not see a great blood puddle.
That is the risky part of a neck shot.
Before we say the Berger bullet failed...what did it do wrong?
It put a fist size hole through. I don't think a different bullet would have made much difference.I see no failure.It wasa neck shot gone wrong due to imperfect placement.
I overestimated range once on an antelope.Held too high.I just clipped the top of the whithers over the shoulders.The antelope went down like a stone.Maybe an inch higher would have been a miss.I nicked a rib like projecting bone,up from the spine."Dorsal fin". It was good for a knockout,but not a kill.That antelope was recovering as I approached,and needed another shot.
I think the Berger bullet method of kill is to do a classic boiler room heart lung shot through the ribs.That explosive performance can make for dramatic kills there.Heart and lung soup.
Whether that is good for hog hunting,I will leave to the hog hunters.
Truly,for a neck shot,if you manage to hit the spine,a cast bullet or military ball will provide an instant kill if it just penetrates sufficiently.
The spine was missed.The bullet penetrated through,with an impressive wound channel.
What do you want the bullet to do? I'm not advocating for Berger,but I see nothing to criticize here.
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Double Naught Spy
New member
It isn't what I want the bullet to do, but what Berger claims which is that one of the things that makes their bullets so good is hydrostatic shock. I can't think of a better place for hydrostatic shock to be killing the animal than right behind the ear, pretty much right next to the spine and the brain stem, both. This should have been a perfect use of the Berger bullet despite not directly impacting the spine or hitting the head. The animal was still conscious.
Imperfect shot? LOL, few shots are perfect from what I see but I can live with classifying the shot as "imperfect." Though I will add that "behind the ear" is a traditionally held spot as a "perfect" shot on hogs and one where the Berger should shine. I personally think that is a bad way of thinking, particularly because of the hog I have pictured above where a behind the ear shot just went through soft tissue and the hog survived and healed up (mostly) before I killed it (with another imperfect shot with my normal ammo into the thoracic cavity). If you don't hit the skull or spine when shooting "behind the ear," then you are relying on hydrostatic shock to skill the animal as there just isn't much there that is vital, just neck muscle.
My normal ammo costs about 60% of what Berger costs and performs very well (Hornady SST). It is much more expensive than FMJ. If I am going to have to rely on shot perfection (which is a good goal, no doubt), then I might as well use FMJ ammo for my perfect shots and save a bunch of money.
I have now shot 9 hogs with the Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. ammo loaded by Precision Firearms that I have recovered and 1 that I have not. These were non-running hogs at the time of the shot. The unrecovered hog was a low neck shot. Hydrostatic shot did not stop or drop the hog. Two more were neck/boilerroom shots (one described below) that resulted in hogs that ran after the shot as well. Despite Berger's promotion of hydrostatic shock, I do not see it as a reliable stopping factor on hogs. It is a bonus if you get it, no doubt, sort of like with other hunting rounds.
Two more hogs that I did shoot through the boilerroom ran as well. They did die, but that is what I would expect from about any bullet when damage the heart, resulting in hypotension. Go figure.
This is NOT to say that the Berger VLD-Hunting isn't a fine hunting round. Measured, I have gotten as much as 20-22" inches of penetration (a lot for a frangible round) that takes out a lot of smaller bone. I have not hit a humerus, yet. This was a quartered toward shot that entered at the neck/shoulder juncture and blasted through the boiler room, and exited on the other side after taking out three ribs on a 270 lb boar. There was an amazing amount of soft tissue damage. For this hog and a couple others I have dissected, soft tissue damage is often extensive and sometimes in unexpected manners (wider area than expected). This hog ran 20 yards or so with a damaged heart and at least one lung and losing a LOT of blood. Hypotension and not hydrostatic shock would appear to be the cause of death. video https://youtu.be/3TqQvIZ-W3E Description of the wound exam is found here. http://www.lonestarboars.com/threads/270-lb-boar-with-berger-vld-hunting.5578/page-2#post-60426 This includes some pretty gory images, hence why I didn't post here.
In one case, I shot a hog through the forehead and part of the round exited an estimated 26" back on the side by the lower ribs (distance estimated from photo and not measured at the time). So it blew through the front of the skull on entry, bottom/back of the skull to exit the head, down the neck and through the chest to exit at the lower ribs. That is very impressive penetration. video https://youtu.be/06vi9skcWrU
So the 6.5 Grendel Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. is a fine hunting round, but hydrostatic shock does not appear to be its strong suit, thought massive tissue damage and penetration do.
Imperfect shot? LOL, few shots are perfect from what I see but I can live with classifying the shot as "imperfect." Though I will add that "behind the ear" is a traditionally held spot as a "perfect" shot on hogs and one where the Berger should shine. I personally think that is a bad way of thinking, particularly because of the hog I have pictured above where a behind the ear shot just went through soft tissue and the hog survived and healed up (mostly) before I killed it (with another imperfect shot with my normal ammo into the thoracic cavity). If you don't hit the skull or spine when shooting "behind the ear," then you are relying on hydrostatic shock to skill the animal as there just isn't much there that is vital, just neck muscle.
My normal ammo costs about 60% of what Berger costs and performs very well (Hornady SST). It is much more expensive than FMJ. If I am going to have to rely on shot perfection (which is a good goal, no doubt), then I might as well use FMJ ammo for my perfect shots and save a bunch of money.
I have now shot 9 hogs with the Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. ammo loaded by Precision Firearms that I have recovered and 1 that I have not. These were non-running hogs at the time of the shot. The unrecovered hog was a low neck shot. Hydrostatic shot did not stop or drop the hog. Two more were neck/boilerroom shots (one described below) that resulted in hogs that ran after the shot as well. Despite Berger's promotion of hydrostatic shock, I do not see it as a reliable stopping factor on hogs. It is a bonus if you get it, no doubt, sort of like with other hunting rounds.
Two more hogs that I did shoot through the boilerroom ran as well. They did die, but that is what I would expect from about any bullet when damage the heart, resulting in hypotension. Go figure.
This is NOT to say that the Berger VLD-Hunting isn't a fine hunting round. Measured, I have gotten as much as 20-22" inches of penetration (a lot for a frangible round) that takes out a lot of smaller bone. I have not hit a humerus, yet. This was a quartered toward shot that entered at the neck/shoulder juncture and blasted through the boiler room, and exited on the other side after taking out three ribs on a 270 lb boar. There was an amazing amount of soft tissue damage. For this hog and a couple others I have dissected, soft tissue damage is often extensive and sometimes in unexpected manners (wider area than expected). This hog ran 20 yards or so with a damaged heart and at least one lung and losing a LOT of blood. Hypotension and not hydrostatic shock would appear to be the cause of death. video https://youtu.be/3TqQvIZ-W3E Description of the wound exam is found here. http://www.lonestarboars.com/threads/270-lb-boar-with-berger-vld-hunting.5578/page-2#post-60426 This includes some pretty gory images, hence why I didn't post here.
In one case, I shot a hog through the forehead and part of the round exited an estimated 26" back on the side by the lower ribs (distance estimated from photo and not measured at the time). So it blew through the front of the skull on entry, bottom/back of the skull to exit the head, down the neck and through the chest to exit at the lower ribs. That is very impressive penetration. video https://youtu.be/06vi9skcWrU
So the 6.5 Grendel Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. is a fine hunting round, but hydrostatic shock does not appear to be its strong suit, thought massive tissue damage and penetration do.
Jim Watson
New member
Hydrostatic Shock, Another Station Heard From
Once upon a time, when shooting and hunting stories were printed on real paper, the Swedish game department did a study on hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity, which came out in translation as the "pulsatile cavern."
They concluded that it only made a difference at impact velocity above 2650 fps. Which is about what a 6.5 Swede will do at hog ranges.
Col. Frank T. Chamberlin wrote in P.O. Ackley's book that the .256 (6.5mm) rifle tested with a 125 gr flatbase spitzer about as fast as the Swede's 140, was more damaging to test pigs than the highly touted 276 Pedersen.
On the other hand, a guy here with a plague of pigs came to prefer the .30-30 to all others, including various high velocity, high intensity, and Magnum rifles.
The bullet was traveling at well over 1800 fps at the time of impact and should have been over 2300 fps.
Once upon a time, when shooting and hunting stories were printed on real paper, the Swedish game department did a study on hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity, which came out in translation as the "pulsatile cavern."
They concluded that it only made a difference at impact velocity above 2650 fps. Which is about what a 6.5 Swede will do at hog ranges.
Col. Frank T. Chamberlin wrote in P.O. Ackley's book that the .256 (6.5mm) rifle tested with a 125 gr flatbase spitzer about as fast as the Swede's 140, was more damaging to test pigs than the highly touted 276 Pedersen.
On the other hand, a guy here with a plague of pigs came to prefer the .30-30 to all others, including various high velocity, high intensity, and Magnum rifles.
So you shot a hog, it dropped in it's tracks, and the bullet blew a hole clear through it that you could put your fist through.......................and this is considered a failure because it didn't die instantly ?
I am not a big hunter and have never hunted hogs, but there must be something I am missing here.
I am not a big hunter and have never hunted hogs, but there must be something I am missing here.
So,what do we mean by "hydrostatic shock" I assume temporary cavitation?The effect of throwing a rock in a pond? A wave of energy flowing through tissue that is mostly liquid?So,the liquid itself tears cells?
Is that sort of close?
OK.We start with a 6.5 mm 130 gr bullet.Its frontal profile displaces a volume of liquid over a distance.That profile can change,expand,A Berger does it one way,a round nose another,a nosler partition another.
And that is the entire bullet contribution to hydrostatic shock.
Velocity is the main factor.The Grendel is in a fine hunting round velocity.Conventional bullets make conventional wound channels very well at 2400 fps.Or 2500 fps.303 British,30-40 Krag,300 Savage,7x57 factory loads.Dependable,but not noted for hydro shock.
It is not in the major hydrostatic shock range.Push that bullet to 3100 or so from a 6.5-06 and your hog MAY have been done.Or not.
The velocity WILL soup heart and lungs.I would not count on it actually tearing apart nerves encased inside a spine.That part gets fickle.
A good neck shot is sweet when you hit the spine.But blowing the trachea out,or the muscles on the back of the neck can be a lost animal.
Do whatever works for you.I'm not trying to be a critic.
I don't use Berger bullets.I'm not selling them.
I just do not see where that bullet failed to do the job.That is my entire point.
Is that sort of close?
OK.We start with a 6.5 mm 130 gr bullet.Its frontal profile displaces a volume of liquid over a distance.That profile can change,expand,A Berger does it one way,a round nose another,a nosler partition another.
And that is the entire bullet contribution to hydrostatic shock.
Velocity is the main factor.The Grendel is in a fine hunting round velocity.Conventional bullets make conventional wound channels very well at 2400 fps.Or 2500 fps.303 British,30-40 Krag,300 Savage,7x57 factory loads.Dependable,but not noted for hydro shock.
It is not in the major hydrostatic shock range.Push that bullet to 3100 or so from a 6.5-06 and your hog MAY have been done.Or not.
The velocity WILL soup heart and lungs.I would not count on it actually tearing apart nerves encased inside a spine.That part gets fickle.
A good neck shot is sweet when you hit the spine.But blowing the trachea out,or the muscles on the back of the neck can be a lost animal.
Do whatever works for you.I'm not trying to be a critic.
I don't use Berger bullets.I'm not selling them.
I just do not see where that bullet failed to do the job.That is my entire point.
Double Naught Spy
New member
444, the hog was conscious and watching me, so yeah, considering Berger promotes this as a big selling point, I did not think it did well. It hasn't done well with 2 more hogs either in that area of performance. The result of shooting it behind the head with lots of hydrostatic shock, should have put the hog down dead, which is the result I have gotten from other rounds that don't promote hydrostatic shock as a selling point.
No, that is exactly NOT what I mean.
What I mean is...
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock is a term which describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
I was really expecting premium performance for a premium price. What I got was a good hunting bullet, but I don't see it as being particularly amazing. It kills well and damages a LOT of tissue. The hydrostatic shock aspect seems to be questionable.
So,what do we mean by "hydrostatic shock" I assume temporary cavitation?
No, that is exactly NOT what I mean.
What I mean is...
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html
Hydrostatic shock transfer refers to the effect when shock waves travel through flesh to distant nerve centers, disrupting their ability to emit electrical impulses.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3051.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock is a term which describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact.
I was really expecting premium performance for a premium price. What I got was a good hunting bullet, but I don't see it as being particularly amazing. It kills well and damages a LOT of tissue. The hydrostatic shock aspect seems to be questionable.
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Jim Watson
New member
You don't have the velocity.
I recall a NRA convention with a speaker who had hunted the world over.
He killed about everything that walks, crawls, or flies with a .257 Weatherby and the 87 gr bullet at 4000 fps. He attributed his success to hydrostatic shock. Similar claims were made even earlier for the .220 Swift.
But I don't think your little AR can keep up in that narrow field.
I recall a NRA convention with a speaker who had hunted the world over.
He killed about everything that walks, crawls, or flies with a .257 Weatherby and the 87 gr bullet at 4000 fps. He attributed his success to hydrostatic shock. Similar claims were made even earlier for the .220 Swift.
But I don't think your little AR can keep up in that narrow field.
reynolds357
New member
I hate to get into the whole "magnum" debate because some people on here get snarky when you point out the merits of the magnum. Having said that, the meat damage I have observed over the years from my .257 WBY, 7 RUM, .30-378 WBY, have been simply amazing. I do not care what anyone says, a 7-08 does not do nearly the damage of a 7 Rum. Hit a deer a few inches out of the vitals with the 08 and track it forever. Hit the deer quite a few inches out of the vitals with the 7 RUM and it still piles up due to the fact that the shock wave turned the vitals into jelly.