Berger VLD-Hunting on Hog, Unexpected Result

D

Double Naught Spy

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I picked up some Precision Firearms loaded Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. 6.5 Grendel ammo to try out on hogs. The ammo is loaded well, chrono'd tight, and shot nice groups (sub moa) at the range. It had been suggested to me for hog hunting. I like trying new ammo once in a while, though I am not sure about this sort of frangible ammo for hogs.

I had a hog coming to my place that I thought was smaller than it was. The plan was for a neck or shoulder shot and I chose the neck. Berger sells their bullets based on being very accurate and coming apart violently shortly after entering an animal. I must say, the bullet did come apart quite violently and with the narrow dimensions of the neck, overpenetrated.

I was surprised to find that 10 minutes or shot after being shot behind the ear, the hog was still alive and breathing. When I walked around to deliver the coup de grace shot with my pistol, his eyes tracked me, which was not what I expected.

I thought maybe the bullet had just zipped through, but it had not. It performed as advertised, creating a massive wound channel that was actually larger inside than the images in the video indicate. The impression I had at the time was "cavernous."

The spine appeared to still be intact given the renewed vigorous kicking that started anew after I shot the brain, the stimulus to the brain resulting in the kicking.

It is only a sample of 1 and I plan to shoot some more, but I must say that I have not had this happen previously in such a manner.

Here is the video. FYI, some of the images are quite graphic, as you might expect when looking at terminal performance in animal tissue.

https://youtu.be/9-guybTjxuI
 
As you said, the Bergers are designed to enter, come a part, destroying the central nervous system.

And they work quite well for the job intended...............on deer, antelope, Elk, etc. assuming your (according to Berger engineers) keep the remaining velocity on target above 1800 fps.

BUT: Hogs and Bear type animals don't have the same nervous system that deer/antelope animals have. Fragmenting bullets don't work the same on these animals.

They should be hunted with a heavier, expanding bullet that retain as much weight as possible. The fat and meat of these animals soak up the fragments instead of allowing them to get to the nervous system.

Not all animals are the same, and may require different bullets.

Take your Bergers and shoot a deer type animal, and I think you'll see a total different result. Then try a heavier, round nose, soft point bullet on hogs.
 
This may cause me to get hated, but in my experience in the last 15 years with Burger bullets I have to rate them as "so-so" at best, and poor at worst as game bullets. I do not believe I have been through a hunting season in the last 15 years where at least some of the hunters used Burgers, so my opinion is based on some real world knowledge.

I admire them for the fist purpose they were marketed for, being superb accuracy, but that is all the good I can ascribe to them. They are super good for paper punching and varmints of 40 pounds and less.

In my opinion, Burger makes target bullets labeled as target bullets and target bullets labeled as hunting bullets, but they don't make a hunting bullet at all.

Any bullet will kill if destroys organs or the central nervous system, but the better hunting bullets hold together and do it even when the angles are not perfect and penetration is needed through large amounts of tissue and bone.

A bullet that gives good cavatation and holds together will kill on the perfect shots just like the ones that come apart, but the ones that come apart fail badly when trying to make a shot that needs to penetrate straight and deep.

On the 6.5 Grendal's I have made, I usually recommend the Nosler 125 Partition and their 130 grain accubond as hunting bullets.
 
You are going to have to school me on this idea that hogs and bears have some sort of different nervous system. That would be something I have apparently missed in my gross anatomy and wildlife courses. I have heard this claim made before, but have never been able to find any sort of scientific literature that supports the claim. If pigs and bears do have a different sort of nervous system, then humans would need to be included in that group as the hog nervous system is used as a teaching analog for humans and is used in some pharmacological studies for human issues.

However, your notion of too much meat and fat absorbing the fragments does have me intrigued. I have watched the videos from Berger and had not seen them mention the nervous system getting destroyed by the fragments. In fact, they were big accuracy, lots of damage done by the fragments, and the transfer of energy to the surrounding tissue, specifically, hydrostatic shock.

The bullet was traveling at well over 1800 fps at the time of impact and should have been over 2300 fps. The bullet delivered the massive tissue damage right by the spine and just behind the head. I would have expected the hydrostatic shock to have done more to the hog that what occurred, certainly to not be conscious.

I am not sure about the muscle and fat absorbing the fragments. That tissue appeared to have been blown from the body. The damage done was volumetrically many times greater than what I see with Hornady SST 123 gr. ammo.
 
the shot sounded like it clipped one of the metal feeder legs
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If you watch his other videos that is the sound his rifle makes, not sure if it is the buffer or spring.

Great video, really surprised that the spine wasn't damaged. I average about 12 - 15 hogs a month, mostly head or neck shots, and would have bet that was a dead hog. Very surprised at the outcome with that much damage too.
 
That is amazing damage that wasn't fatal. I've probably forgotten, but did you try any SSTs on chest shots? Wonder what the Bergers will do with chest shots. I haven't been able to hunt with my AA yet, but the 123s print ridiculous.
 
Stuff happens. I've seen animals hit in non survivable spots with complete penetration, and explosive expansion that ran 100 yards. I've seen animals drop in their tracks from much less dramatic wounds. Some animals just don't want to die and sometimes bullet placement and performance don't matter. I don't think you, or the bullet failed. You just found the one hog that didn't give up so easy.

There are 2 thoughts as to bullet performance. When I started hunting everyone thought that if a bullet that exited it had failed. You were supposed to get violent expansion and find what was left of the bullet somewhere on the far side.

Today many people consider that a bullet failure and bullets are supposed to exit.

The truth is both approaches work. But don't ask bullets designed for one task to do something they weren't designed to do. I think Berger and Barnes both make good bullets. But they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
 
I agree that Berger target bullets are not good hunting bullets. I have no experience with their hunting bullets, but have heard that they perform well. As far as the wound not being fatal, you paralyzed the animal by having the bullet come apart near the spinal column, about the same as getting hit across the neck will knock out a person. Not fatal, but incapacitating. I would suggest a hunting bullet for hunting.
 
Jerry, the sound you hear is the sound of The Machine That Goes "PING" AKA the pronged flash hider on my rifle. The 3 prongs resonate like tuning forks. I used to hate it and then people started associating the noise with killing hogs, LOL. It is an AAC 51T. I don't even notice the noise anymore.

I would suggest a hunting bullet for hunting.
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LOL, this is Berger's hunting bullet. Normally, I shoot Hornady SST 123 gr ammo and it does a dandy of a job, be it for head, neck, or shoulder shots. I never count on shoulder shots dropping a hog, regardless of caliber, unless it hits the spine or otherwise does CNS damage.

That is amazing damage that wasn't fatal.
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I am sure it was fatal, just not immediately fatal, which was part of my surprise. Especially that close to the spine and to the brain, I would have expected the hydrostatic shock that Berger advertises as a key feature of their bullets' performance to have been overwhelming.

This is actually the second hog that I have seen with a wound here. The other was the first one I killed when I moved to thermal scopes. It had a healed entry 1-2" behind the ear on one side and a large, mostly healed wound on the other side. It had been shot and survived.

100_1988reduced.jpg


Stuff happens.
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Yes it does and a sample of 1 is only anecdotal. However, first time out of the gate with the ammo to have this happen is just weird. I will try this on a couple more hogs and see what happens. Maybe it will work out well and maybe I will just have an expensive coyote and bobcat round.

The truth is both approaches work. But don't ask bullets designed for one task to do something they weren't designed to do. I think Berger and Barnes both make good bullets. But they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Hornady SST seems to fall in the middle, often with overpenetration AND fragmenting, especially if the non-bonding bullet hits anything substantial. Even when it doesn't overpenetrate, recovered bullets have often shed a goodly amount of their original weight. Exit wounds, when they occur are often larger and sometimes multiple (but smaller, of course). I latched on to SST early on and it has been an excellent performer on hogs for me and does some terrible things to coyotes and bobcats (NOT pelt friendly).

I do like overpenetration on hogs as it increases the chance for a blood trail if the hog doesn't drop in place. The only problem is that hogs tend to seal-up quickly and blood trails or sometimes quite poor.
 
Simple matter of massive shock to the spine causing paralysis. Given enough time, the hog might have regained some movement.
Almost 30 years ago, I neck shot a whitetail buck about 250 yards out. We were dragging the deer to the edge of the field when we noticed it was getting easier to drag. Holy Crap, the buck was pedaling along with his back legs even though I was sure he was DRT. At that point, we cut his throat & finished him. During butchering, the question was answered: bullet had grazed the spine but had only caused temporary paralysis. When we started pulling on his neck, the buck's muscle control started to return.
 
In looking at the video, at the time you took the shot, your center dot was below the spine, so you hit POA. The fact that he dropped at the shot and was unable to get up is proof that you surely did interrupt the CNS at the spine, as otherwise he would have either run off or at a minimum gotten up.

I agree with you on your expectation of a quick death and share your surprise that he was still alive when you got to him and conscious enough to track you. Simply amazing. I put that into the column of "the animal gets a vote". I've seen quite a few shots over the years with proven bullet designs on high percentage shots result in an animal that runs off, walks off, or simply refuses to accept that it's dead. Post-mortem evaluation proved accurate shots and expected bullet performance.
 
I never count on shoulder shots dropping a hog, regardless of caliber, unless it hits the spine or otherwise does CNS damage.
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I wouldn't either, but would like to have confidence that a bullet would still do its job if my shot was a little off.
 
I've toppled many animals with my older Marlin lever gun in 35 Remington. It shoots a 200 grain soft tip bullet at approx 2,050 FPS which is always lethal and quite damaging to flesh, bones, and organs. Another very good hog cartridge is the 44 MAG loaded with the Speer 270 grain Deep Curl bullet. This heavy bullet kills far better than mere paper charts would suggest.

Jack

 
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Great video and nice shot!

I guess you never know what might happen, even with a good shot. +1 for those who have seen weird stuff even after a well-placed shot.

No experience with hogs, but I'd probably prefer something different that might dispatch it quicker. Might be an anomaly, but it would be hard for me to use those again. Let us know what happens!
 
This may cause me to get hated, but in my experience in the last 15 years with Burger bullets I have to rate them as "so-so" at best, and poor at worst as game bullets
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I agree. Berger has decided to jump on the retarded "elk sniper" bandwagon, and the result is a lot of game being shot with bullets designed for target use and *re-purposed* as hunting bullets. The results in general have been poor, due to a mix of inappropriate terminal performance and shots at excessive distance causing misses when animals and wind don't cooperate.
 
Having had quite a bit of college anatomy, I have to believe that the difference in bullet performance on deer and boar is not due to difference in central nervous system. Rather I think it due to the difference in body mass and morphology.

A deer is an agile animal capable of acrobatic speed. A healthy buck can bound over a high fence that a boar could only try and crash through.

A boar is a short animal that carries great mass close to ground. It's short legged, densely muscled, and has a thick gristle shield as a defense from tusks.

You can't really expect a thin skinned bullet suitable for white tail to produce those same results on a Boar, IMO.
 
Berger hunting and target bullets are different bullets. I kill hogs all the time with Bergers. I am not all into the internet video thing but I will have to put up some pics of the next nasty ole boar that feels the wrath of a Hunting VLD launched from the 7 Rum. They look like you stuck a bomb in their ear and exploded it. The 7 Rum is not my usual hog rifle, but if its what I have with me in the bean field during deer season and a hog comes out, oh well.
 
You can't really expect a thin skinned bullet suitable for white tail to produce those same results on a Boar, IMO.
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Actually, quite the opposite. Most bullets designed for deer will work just fine on hogs... Growing up in central Florida, I shot more pigs than deer. I've also hunted them in OK as well. Shot them with everything from run-of-the-mill core lokts to boutique bullets like Winchester Ballistic Silvertip.

Shot placement is key.
 
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