Beretta impressions/questions

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I have shot a few of the 92/96 series and my impressions are top notch reliability at the expense of accuracy (I cannot hit with them). Considering these are strictly "combat pistols", the accuracy is not an issue though. Now, I like the open top design so much (both looks and practicality) that I am considering getting a Beretta. In the unlikely event of a jam, the open top makes clearing the jam easier. I prefer the models that have the pop up barrel. Question: what models feature the pop up barrel. I know some of the .380 models do, but I don't think the full size 9mm and .40 do? As I am not experienced with Beretta, please lead me in the right direction. I would like a .380 or greater caliber AND the pop up barrel feature. My main reason to pick one up is to have something different, but at the same time I want a reliable pistol that will be somewhat durable (unlike the Tomcat).
 
"reliability at the expense of accuracy (I cannot hit with them)"

Statements like this always make me raise my eyebrows. Before I say my peace, yes, I understand the 92/92 is far from the most accurate handgun out there; but if you "cannot hit with it," it's you, not the gun. Switching to a different handgun and being good with it takes more than a few rounds.

I'm new to shooting, and my 92G is my only firearm. I've only shot 1500 rounds through it in about 6 months time, yet I can consistently do 4"-5" groups at 25yds and ~1" at 10 yds. And I KNOW the gun can do better as there are still many parts of my shot I'm still learning to master (trigger control, steadyness, sight alignment, etc). I once even shot a 1/2" 5-shot group with someone's 92G EliteII at 10yds.

As for the tip up barrel, check out these models:
http://www.beretta.com/pistole/Cheetah.htm
http://www.beretta.com/pistole/TomcatBobcatJetfire.htm

I would only look to these over the 9x series if size/weight is the consideration or you want to carry. If you are worried about clearing jams, well, you won't have any in a 92/96, and the open design gives you plenty of access for both chearing jams (which won't happen) and direct loading.

I hope the info (links) above is useful, but don't rule out the 92 or 96 unless it just doesn't fit your use or your hands.

That said, I, too, would like to get both a Cheetah and a Cougar (rotating barrel).

rvb
 
Sorry, let me clarify. I mean I cannot get great groups with them. The best I can do is with the Beretta 92/96 is 3-4" groups @ 25 yards. I didn't mean I miss the target completely (my choice of words was bad and I apologize for being vague). I just don't get the accuracy with Berettas that I get with other types of handguns (like Sigs, CZs and 1911s).
 
Sorry, I understand what your saying better, now.
And sorry, also, that I can't talk accuracy with you more. Like I said, I'm still new to this. :) I'm still working on keeping the sights completely aligned with just snap caps, even... I occasionally have a very good group, but you can't measure yourself by your best (luckiest). ;)

You might try posting your question at http://www.beretta-forum.com . I also know there are people there who are quite good with their 92/96's.

As to your original question, no, the 9x barrel does not tip in any way (either up or down). The links above should answer your questions as to the calibers available in the models which do have tip-up barrels.

Have a good one,
rvb
 
Locking lug troubles?

Found this while doing a search.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=61435

One person in particular thinks that the locking lug is a trouble spot. Any one knowledgable on Berettas please chime in....

Ken Cook wrote the following.........

[/quote]

Posted: 03-20-2001 02:52 AM Profile Email All Posts by Member Edit/Delete Staff Only
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was a Marine Armorer and submitted many QDRs (Quality Deficiency Report) on the M9 Beretta.
Problems noted were of course the infamous slide failures, (which I never actually saw) and some other minor problems.
The BIG problem as far as I'm concerned was a tendency for one of the locking lugs to break off of the breech lock and COMPLETELY lock up the pistol.
I'm talking total lockup, meaning that it's going to take a trained Armorer at least half an hour to get the pistol APART and 5 minutes to replace the breech lock. (and 2 hours to do the paperwork!) Beretta's response was that this was an "expected breakage" after 5,000 rounds and therefore met the requirements of the Milspec. (Needless to say, the term "Milspec" in an ad is NOT a selling point for me.)
That's all fine and well I suppose. Unless you happen to need that (approx) 5,000th round to keep someone from killing you.

I will probably take a little heat for this, but I do NOT consider the M9 or it's civilian counterpart an acceptable self defense pistol.

If you're FORCED by departmental decree to carry it, I'd strongly urge you to replace the breech block every 2000 rounds.
Expensive? It's cheaper than a funeral.

__________________
Your mind is your primary weapon.
USE IT!
Molon Labe!

[/quote]
 
GunreviewWebmaster ,

I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about when buying a Beretta 92 or 96.
The issues that people like to spout about the Beretta 9x include the following:

-- Locking block failures. This issue was fixed by Beretta through minor design changes in the early '90s.
http://beretta.squawk.com/technical/blocks.htm
If it worries you, maybe change it every 15k to 20k rounds, not every 2k. And it's a relatively inexpensive part that I would suspect anyone could do themselves (though I haven't ever had to replace one).

-- Slide separations, the old "eating Italian steel" line. The new (w/in the last decade or so) 9x's have an additional slide stop built in. An easy way to tell is if the bottom-rear of one of the slide rails has a cut in it about 2" long and the hammer-pin has a big-diameter head, it has the update. And Beretta will upgrade older models w/o the extra slide stop for a small charge.

-- The "Jackie Chan" take down. -duh. I personally say "Get a life. Stop watching so much TV. End of conversation," to anyone who brings that up to me. Non issue.

I'm -NOT- trying to say that "Beretta is Best! You Have to get one" or anything, but I do like mine! :) Many issues that people claim keep them from buying a Beretta are like saying you wont buy a Glock because "They all kB!" The armor who posted did not say how long ago he was in the Marines; I think there were more problems with older production models back in the '80s.

just my $0.02.
rvb

ps. Do check out the beretta-forum.com, I think there is someone on there with something crazy like 125k rounds of +P 9mm on original parts (except springs).
 
rvb,

Great post. I feel very confident that you know what your talking about (you seem very knowledgable on Berettas).

BTW, the one thing that has me considering the Taurus P92 clone is the "cocked and locked" ability. I assume the Taurus clone is not as well made? Would you recommend the Beretta over the Taurus?
 
the locking block is designed to take a lot of the stress of recoil so it gets the most wear on it. however it's still supposed to last around 20,000 rounds so i wouldn't worry about them breaking much.

I have 2 berettas a 92FS and a 92G Elite. they are both very reliable and very accurate. i don't feel they are any less accurate than my Sig, Glocks or other pistols. if you can't shoot it as well as you can other pistols then it's not for you.

I also like the open slide design and i feel it makes them very reliable. the only tip-up barreled guns they make are in .380 and below. they make 1 .380 model (i'm pretty sure it's the Cheetah model 86) and then the small framed models.

IMO Berettas are much better made than Tauruses. I see them jam all the time at the range and my 92FS has never jammed in the 3-4 years i've owned it.
 
I (LEO) was issued my first Beretta 96D in March 1996 when we transitioned from the S&W M10. It experienced 10 mechanical failures in its 18,683 round life span which ended with a catastrophic failure April 2000.
My first barrel bulged in the top of the chamber at 1400 rounds. The second barrel developed a crack in the bottom of the chamber after another 6400 rounds.
Parts that failed in my pistol and commonly fail in others that I have witnessed include: trigger return spring (in an emergency push the trigger forward at the side with your trigger finger), trigger bar spring (causes trigger bar to disconnect. Pistol can be made to fire by inverting it.), take down lever retaining pin shearing off (spring tension of recoil guide rod is the only thing, at this point, keeping slide on the reciever)
At 18,683 rounds the left 'wing' of the locking block sheared off and rotated 180 degrees. The broken piece of locking block was driven down into the barrel rail tracks of the reciever damaging it beyond repair. I also noted a crack in the reciever by the firing pin block lever. The slide was intact except where the locking block had peened a tear shaped piece of metal in the slide groove. It took me 4 hours to rotate the broken piece of locking block using magnets and bamboo skewers and position it to permit the removal of the slide.
We are not authorized to carry secondary firearms. It is pretty clear what my fate would have been had this occurred on the street.
I consider the M96D to be an excellent 'range' pistol. It fed-fired-extracted-ejected 100% However it absolutely is not a service pistol.
My replacement M96D (nib) is just over the 5,000 round mark with no failures. I am extremely meticulous in equipment maintenance. I have no 'name' loyalties. I only care about performance. I have 22 plus years firearms experience in competition, instruction and LE.
 
Gunreview,
"I feel very confident that you know what your talking about" HA! well, I can assure you that between the two of us, you're the only one that feels that way! I'm just spitting back at you what info I found when I had the same questions as you. I can't talk about long term reliability first hand, as my 92 is only at 1500 rounds, but I plan to do what I can to keep it going strong.

DT,
when you say "meticulous in equipment maintenance," does that include springs? It seems that most Beretta owners will tell you to replace the recoil spring, trigger return spring, and trigger-bar spring every 3k to 5k rounds. I've seen complete replacement kits, both from Beretta and I think it was Wolff for only a couple bucks.

And out of my own curiosity, were the failures you witnessed in addition to yours all in the 96's? I'm just curious because it seems that these problems tend to happen more in the .40S&W verses 9mm. THANKS!

rvb
 
As others have pointed out, the locking block failure has been addressed. In fact, the Elite II has a redesigned and beefed up one. It also has a heavier slide to address some slide cracking that occurred on older 92s that were shot *alot*.

I own an Elite II and find it highly accurate, at least from a self defense perspective.
 
Sorry, let me clarify. I mean I cannot get great groups with them. The best I can do is with the Beretta 92/96 is 3-4" groups @ 25 yards.
Click to expand...

Again, this is you, not the gun. It may take time to get used to the trigger, like a Glock or Kel-Tec. I've seen Berettas group 1.5" @ 25 yds. None of the 92 or 96 series has the tip up barrel. Don't worry about the locking block as every gun has some sort of stigma attached to it. (Glocks kB, SIGs rust, HKs break firing pins, 1911s jam, Berettas break locking blocks...)
 
Here is a list of centerfire autos I have shot in order of accuracy. These are my general impressions, I'm not saying I averaged the group sizes for all these guns.

BTW, all of these guns are stock--no accuracy affecting modifications. When I list accuracy, it's 5 shot groups.

1. DE .44 Mag(New gun) (Better than 1" at 25 yards)

2. Beretta 92 (Less than 2" at 25 yards)

3. H&K USP 9mm, EAA Witness in .45 ACP, Makarov & PPK all about the same

4. Ruger P95, Glock 17, Swedish Lahti & Beretta 86

5. Glock 20 & CZ52 (I might be cheating these two guns since I haven't shot either with a wide variety of ammo)

6. Colt Mustang

7. Ruger P89 & Keltec P32

8. Colt 1911, DE .44 Mag(this one had been shot a lot--they don't seem to age well)

BTW, I've had three 92 series Berettas, all of them equally accurate, so I tend to think my results aren't a fluke. For the record, I'm not a big Beretta fan, I lean more to the Glock side.

As to the Colt 1911: What a POS! How do you get a .45 to recoil that bad? It's beyond me, surely the poor ergonomics can't make that much difference alone. I waited a long time to try out this gun since single action autos seem a bit out of place, to me, in the modern world. But, after reading years of accolade for the 1911, I decided that I must really be missing out. I went into the test expecting to be impressed--especially after all the glowing accounts of the gun I had heard. I was truly amazed. Unpleasant to shoot, prone to stoppages, unrewarding in terms of accuracy, and amazingly complex to field strip in comparison to just about every other autopistol on the market. All I can say is; this gun feels and looks like it was designed about 100 years ago (yes, I know it really was). On the other hand, I can see that if I were willing to put $500-$1000 into modifying this gun, it could really be...unbelievably expensive and possibly still a POS.

Oh, it's probably worth mentioning that I wasn't a Glock fan back then, I still didn't like the idea of plastic pistols...

Anyway, wandered off topic a bit.

I've never had a failure or breakage of any kind while shooting a Beretta handgun. They tend to be very accurate. They look nice (a big plus in many people's scorebook). They are a bit on the big side.

Beretta seems to actively work to improve their product and seems to be responsive to complaints by their users. By this I mean that they are willing to modify their design, even when they don't really feel there is a problem. The hammer pin, the reinforced slide of the Brigadier, and the reworked locking block are all examples of changes that Beretta has made in response to customer complaints, real or imagined.
 
I am amazed!

Even many of my buddies who are NRA Cert firearm instructors have a hard time getting great groups with Berettas. I guess it might just be a hard pistol to learn to shoot? I am a good shot with my CZs and Sigs I can consistently get sub 2" groups @ 25 yards (with good ammo). With the great ammo (match or handloads), the groups even become better (especially in the CZs). I take it that it might be the ergonomics of the Beretta and lack of familiarity (training on Berettas) that throw my groups off?
 
Take a look at the 2001 S&W IDPA Winter Nationals results http://www.idpa.com/matchresults/2001/S&W_winter_nats_2001.htm - if you scroll down to the "STOCK SERVICE PISTOL" section the top score belongs to Ernest Langdon - shooting a Beretta Elite II - btw two other members of the Beretta Elite Team finished in the top ten, Rob Haught & Dave Harrington. Todd Green the other Beretta team member finished 11th. For info on the Beretta Team see http://beretta.squawk.com/eliteteam/

-- Chuck
 
Maybe the problem is

Overtravel.

All of the Beretta 92s I've shot have significant trigger overtravel. It takes some getting used to, but the reward for learning to deal with it is some pretty excellent groups.
 
Beretta Impressions

Get a Glock. Much better gun. So simple. The 92 is a fine weapon if you go back to 1950. The Glock really is the better gun. The only reason the Beretta has a following is that US Army thing and the only reason the US Army choose the Beretta was timing and the fact that Glock would not manufacture Glocks in the US. This does not stop over 60 percent of the US police departments from choosing Glock.

Glocks shoot. All the time. Perfect in simplicity and reliability. And although not match grade, very accurate.
 
Glocks shoot. All the time. Perfect in simplicity and reliability. And although not match grade, very accurate.
Click to expand...

I have owned several Glocks and still have some. I don't care for the poor ergonomics and average accuracy of Glocks. Glocks are good guns, I don't dispute that, but they are overrated by many. What fits person A might not fit person B. I don't like .40 Glocks in particular. The recoil is very sharp in .40 Glocks compared to other .40s and the accuracy lacks in my opinion.
 
Beretta Impressions
Get a Glock. Much better gun. So simple. The 92 is a fine weapon if you go back to 1950. The Glock really is the better gun. The only reason the Beretta has a following is that US Army thing and the only reason the US Army choose the Beretta was timing and the fact that Glock would not manufacture Glocks in the US. This does not stop over 60 percent of the US police departments from choosing Glock.

Glocks shoot. All the time. Perfect in simplicity and reliability. And although not match grade, very accurate.
Click to expand...

I guess you think a Beretta is comparable to a Lorcin or Hi-Point...definately not one of the most accurate and reliable pistols on the market. :rolleyes:
 
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