Beretta, HK, or Walther?
- Thread starter sundance43.5
- Start date
From reading the above posts, you can see that while some say the Berettas and Walthers are perfect, just as many express some misgivings on durability or reliability, respectively.
My point is that a well designed 9mm pistol is not under the kind of stresses that should necessitate anything more than spring replacement for any amount of firing until the barrel wears out. You can say what you want about their design's otherwise, but 9mm HKs, Glocks, Sigs, CZs, Rugers can take hundreds of thousands of rounds without any expected failure.
The 92 has exceptional feed reliability and is one of the best out of the box pistols out there, but it wasn't built for a lifetime's use-the heavy duty slides on the Brigadeer and Elite is testament to that.
In terms of Sigs cracking, the Seals I work with have only had that problem with guns in the 6 digit round count. If that's not enough, the HK is similarly priced and next to perfect.
Personally, I've graduated to the reliable, safe and durable HK P7 design, but I would feel good owning guns from the above list.
My point is that a well designed 9mm pistol is not under the kind of stresses that should necessitate anything more than spring replacement for any amount of firing until the barrel wears out. You can say what you want about their design's otherwise, but 9mm HKs, Glocks, Sigs, CZs, Rugers can take hundreds of thousands of rounds without any expected failure.
The 92 has exceptional feed reliability and is one of the best out of the box pistols out there, but it wasn't built for a lifetime's use-the heavy duty slides on the Brigadeer and Elite is testament to that.
In terms of Sigs cracking, the Seals I work with have only had that problem with guns in the 6 digit round count. If that's not enough, the HK is similarly priced and next to perfect.
Personally, I've graduated to the reliable, safe and durable HK P7 design, but I would feel good owning guns from the above list.
Sundance43.5
I actually carry a HK Compact .40, very reliable, light, accurate and easy to clean. I feel comfortable and trust on it performance.
I bought a Barsto barrel in .357 Sig (just to add a new caliber / approx. 180 bucks), also very reliable and accurate. It could be your back up for hunting.
Good luck - ALP
I actually carry a HK Compact .40, very reliable, light, accurate and easy to clean. I feel comfortable and trust on it performance.
I bought a Barsto barrel in .357 Sig (just to add a new caliber / approx. 180 bucks), also very reliable and accurate. It could be your back up for hunting.
Good luck - ALP
Beretta; I'm owned many over the years and swear by them. Their design is one of the most reliable ever made. I don't think I shoot as much as some other enthusiests but I've put thousands of rounds downrange and honestly don't remember any malfunctions of any kind. I've owned late eighties Model 92's and newer ones. No cracked slides or broken locking blocks.
H&K; I never owned an H&K product until my shootin' buddy and I both bought USP full size 45's when they first came out. Like a dummy I traded mine for something else but he still has his and absolutely loves it. He got the Tac-Lite which by the way is a quality piece and just sent it off to the factory for some night sights. These USP's shoot, shoot, and keep shootin' no matter what. Number one 45 for me is the Sig P-220 but the USP's are a close second.
Can't comment on the Walther. The only Walther I ever owned was an early eighties PPK from Interarms. Best Regards, J. Parker
H&K; I never owned an H&K product until my shootin' buddy and I both bought USP full size 45's when they first came out. Like a dummy I traded mine for something else but he still has his and absolutely loves it. He got the Tac-Lite which by the way is a quality piece and just sent it off to the factory for some night sights. These USP's shoot, shoot, and keep shootin' no matter what. Number one 45 for me is the Sig P-220 but the USP's are a close second.
Can't comment on the Walther. The only Walther I ever owned was an early eighties PPK from Interarms. Best Regards, J. Parker
Since you seem to be looking for a 9mm and have taken Glock out of the running, may I suggest that instead of Beretta's 92FS and Walther's P99, why not just step up to SIG's P226 and Browning's Hi Power? Berettas are a bit bulky and the P99's I've seen have to be cleaned - frequently! - to stay reliable. Can't say I've had much experience with the HK's, but a CZ75B fits my hand better, so there you go.
Handy,
I'm not trying to push your buttons (honestly).
If this is happening in numbers why aren't we seeing people here on the Firing Line post about it? I do a search of the forum and get zero firsthand witnesses (not even second or third person accounts) of a cracked slide or broken locking blocks. Shouldn't one or two pop up every few months? There are a lot of Berettas out there. There is even one thread that asked if anyone had ever worn out an aluminum framed handgun ( http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58604). Other than an account of a broken Beretta with an estimated 600,000 rounds through it there are none that mention firsthand accounts of having a Beretta slide or locking block fail. Isn't that circumspect?
the Beretta L List (http://beretta.squawk.com/) arguably a reputable information source (they have notes from armorers classes etc.) states " The newer style locking block has an expected service life of 17,000 to 22,000 rounds of NATO-spec (+p+) 9mm ammunition. Many shooters have seen these new blocks last well over 50,000 rounds of standard-pressure ammunition." It can be argued that the Beretta design allows for much more longivety with less output for parts. The Beretta locks up on the locking block rather than locking up on the barrel block as many other guns do. Eventually any firearm will wear at those areas and the only thin you'd be able to do is replace the slide and/or the barrel. with the Beretta, you drop in a $50 replacement part and you're off and running again.
As you can see there are plenty of posts here on the Firing Line discussing the supposed problems with the Berettas, but very few if any about anyone actually having a problem. I have to say, in my opinion, it is a lot of rumors that get passed around. People want others to think they are "in the know" and continue to spread nonsense.
Again, I'm not flaming, just stating my opinion. I think there are very few people even on this board who would wear out a Beretta 92FS to the point of breaking the slide or the locking block in a lifetime of normal shooting.
Shake
I'm not trying to push your buttons (honestly).
I do have to state that ayone who has misgivings about reliability is beyond hope. I'll go out on a limb a say that the Beretta 92 has to be included in the list of most reliable autos on the market. I'll agree with you on the issue that the Beretta may not be as durable as steel framed handguns. Aluminum frames will obviously not last aslong as a good steel one. However, I really don't agree with the durability issue on the locking blocks and slides. I have yet to see either of those items fail on the Berettas I've owned, fired, and seen fired.
If this is happening in numbers why aren't we seeing people here on the Firing Line post about it? I do a search of the forum and get zero firsthand witnesses (not even second or third person accounts) of a cracked slide or broken locking blocks. Shouldn't one or two pop up every few months? There are a lot of Berettas out there. There is even one thread that asked if anyone had ever worn out an aluminum framed handgun ( http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58604). Other than an account of a broken Beretta with an estimated 600,000 rounds through it there are none that mention firsthand accounts of having a Beretta slide or locking block fail. Isn't that circumspect?
the Beretta L List (http://beretta.squawk.com/) arguably a reputable information source (they have notes from armorers classes etc.) states " The newer style locking block has an expected service life of 17,000 to 22,000 rounds of NATO-spec (+p+) 9mm ammunition. Many shooters have seen these new blocks last well over 50,000 rounds of standard-pressure ammunition." It can be argued that the Beretta design allows for much more longivety with less output for parts. The Beretta locks up on the locking block rather than locking up on the barrel block as many other guns do. Eventually any firearm will wear at those areas and the only thin you'd be able to do is replace the slide and/or the barrel. with the Beretta, you drop in a $50 replacement part and you're off and running again.
As you can see there are plenty of posts here on the Firing Line discussing the supposed problems with the Berettas, but very few if any about anyone actually having a problem. I have to say, in my opinion, it is a lot of rumors that get passed around. People want others to think they are "in the know" and continue to spread nonsense.
Again, I'm not flaming, just stating my opinion. I think there are very few people even on this board who would wear out a Beretta 92FS to the point of breaking the slide or the locking block in a lifetime of normal shooting.
Shake
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Shake,
I'm not trying to be Mr. Anti-Beretta. I'm just more pro other, finer designs. To answer a couple of statements:
Frame cracking: the original M9's did have the frames crack which allowed the slide to seperate. The frames were changed, but the biggest improvement was a piece that stops the slide from coming off should the other part shear. The main reinforcement is to prevent the slide hitting the shooter should the frame fail, not really a proof against the failure itself.
20,000 to 50,000 round life: If you don't shoot it, a 92 will never wear out. However, 100 rounds once a week is 20,000 in 4 years and 50,000 in 10. I have personally fired a 92 on it's third locking block-they do were out. If a $50 part is an acceptable upkeep, I can't say, but that's 500rds of ammo.
So what's the compromise worth? What do you get with a 92 for the trade off in durability, size, weight and ergonomics? You can not argue that it's the most accurate, least expensive, most reliable. It's as accurate and reliable as some other guns, but those same guns have a lot of other qualities on their sides.
If you already own a 92, you're well armed, don't second guess yourself. If you're in the market for a new gun, I'm suggesting that some of the newer designs may have improved on the late '60's 92 pattern and are worth your attention. The Beretta was the first wonder nine to be popularly available and proven, but it's nothing special with the excellent products out now. Popular isn't necessarily best.
I hear the Steyr M pistols are on sale.
I'm not trying to be Mr. Anti-Beretta. I'm just more pro other, finer designs. To answer a couple of statements:
Frame cracking: the original M9's did have the frames crack which allowed the slide to seperate. The frames were changed, but the biggest improvement was a piece that stops the slide from coming off should the other part shear. The main reinforcement is to prevent the slide hitting the shooter should the frame fail, not really a proof against the failure itself.
20,000 to 50,000 round life: If you don't shoot it, a 92 will never wear out. However, 100 rounds once a week is 20,000 in 4 years and 50,000 in 10. I have personally fired a 92 on it's third locking block-they do were out. If a $50 part is an acceptable upkeep, I can't say, but that's 500rds of ammo.
So what's the compromise worth? What do you get with a 92 for the trade off in durability, size, weight and ergonomics? You can not argue that it's the most accurate, least expensive, most reliable. It's as accurate and reliable as some other guns, but those same guns have a lot of other qualities on their sides.
If you already own a 92, you're well armed, don't second guess yourself. If you're in the market for a new gun, I'm suggesting that some of the newer designs may have improved on the late '60's 92 pattern and are worth your attention. The Beretta was the first wonder nine to be popularly available and proven, but it's nothing special with the excellent products out now. Popular isn't necessarily best.
I hear the Steyr M pistols are on sale.
I'm not sure why HankB says the P99 needs to be cleaned a lot to function reliably. I've got 2 P99's that I haven't cleaned in over 1000 rounds each and both are still clicking right along with no problems. I have been wiping down the outside of them, just to keep them nice looking, but the insides I haven't touched. One is a regular P99 the other is a P99 QA. Both are .40's
P99
P99
Handy,
As I stated previously, 99% of the shooter on this BB don't shoot 100 rounds per week, and an even smaller percentage do so with one firearm. I think you'd have to look far and wide to find one instance of a Beretta being totally shot out. I've never seen it and haven't ran into a firsthand account of it happening on the net.
I do own a 92 style Beretta (Elite II) and you hardly have to worry about me second guessing myself. It is one of my favorite handguns and I'll enjoy shooting it for many, many years to come. The 92 is not my favorite handgun (I'd have to admit to being an H&K fanatic when it comes to autos). I do get a little worked up when people knock a particular design and discount its effectiveness based on the BS being passed around on the net. Newer designs, as you call them, are more often than not variations of those 60's or earlier patterns.
As far as being in the market for a new gun, who isn't? I have a hard time not buying one a month. Popularity is not a consideration when I shop for a gun (otherwise I'd have a safe full of GLOCKs which I don't). I also wouldn't have bought a Beretta if popularity were a consideration. Lord knows it doesn't get much acclaim on the net. You said it, popular isn't necessarily the best.
I'll pass on the Steyr (sales are hardly a consideration either), I've got more H&K's, CZ's, Ruger revos, and 1911s on the list. And, who knows? I just may pick up another POS Beretta. If everything I hear on the net is true, I'll be needing one for spare parts.
Shake
That is true, although as I asked the question before, where are the instances of failure? They just aren't happening. I'd submit that the changes were mostly PR moves by Beretta.
Now, with the exception of durability, you are talking about subjectives. I can't decide what size or weight of handgun works best for you and vice versa. Ergonomics, perhaps more than anything else is subjective. For many shooters, what you call trade-offs are benefits. I find very few handguns that feel as good in my hands as the Beretta (92 and Cougars for that matter). GLOCKs feel like 2X4s to me. They may feel great to someone else, but to me they just don't inspire confidence. The initial question asked which gun would be good for home defense. You'd have to agree with me that size and wieght matter little in that regard. For a full sized gun with standard capacity mags readily available and inexpensive, the Beretta makes a very good home defense weapon.
As I stated previously, 99% of the shooter on this BB don't shoot 100 rounds per week, and an even smaller percentage do so with one firearm. I think you'd have to look far and wide to find one instance of a Beretta being totally shot out. I've never seen it and haven't ran into a firsthand account of it happening on the net.
I do own a 92 style Beretta (Elite II) and you hardly have to worry about me second guessing myself. It is one of my favorite handguns and I'll enjoy shooting it for many, many years to come. The 92 is not my favorite handgun (I'd have to admit to being an H&K fanatic when it comes to autos). I do get a little worked up when people knock a particular design and discount its effectiveness based on the BS being passed around on the net. Newer designs, as you call them, are more often than not variations of those 60's or earlier patterns.
As far as being in the market for a new gun, who isn't? I have a hard time not buying one a month. Popularity is not a consideration when I shop for a gun (otherwise I'd have a safe full of GLOCKs which I don't). I also wouldn't have bought a Beretta if popularity were a consideration. Lord knows it doesn't get much acclaim on the net. You said it, popular isn't necessarily the best.
I'll pass on the Steyr (sales are hardly a consideration either), I've got more H&K's, CZ's, Ruger revos, and 1911s on the list. And, who knows? I just may pick up another POS Beretta. If everything I hear on the net is true, I'll be needing one for spare parts.
Shake
I'm glad your .40's work. The P99's I've seen which were "reliablity challenged" were all 9's. I haven't seen enough .40's to comment on them. Some Walther defenders claim that different recoil springs need to be used in the 9mm's depending on whether or not you use US or (hotter) European ammo; if true, this makes the 9mm P99 the most "ammo sensitive" pistol to come along in years. Not good. At least one P99 I've seen had trigger problems, and I've read in these forums about premature slide lock difficulty. What I've personally seen in 9mm P99's (In Walther, not *&* versions) doesn't inspire confidence.
FWIW, where there used to be several shooters using P99's at our local IDPA matches, they're now very rare - the same people have switched to BHP's, Glocks, or 1911's.
Pity. The pistols just feel so damn good in my hand...
HK ALL THE WAY! I love the USP...
So loveley looking, and its rugged and stuff!
but there so expensive!
So either a USP or a Glock, because glocks have a funkey trigger and i wouldent leave it out with cuerious childs around if you have them. I mean yeah if i had kids, id teach them about guns all the time and let them hold them and stuff, but i wouldent take that chance with a glock, you just never know.
So loveley looking, and its rugged and stuff!
but there so expensive!
So either a USP or a Glock, because glocks have a funkey trigger and i wouldent leave it out with cuerious childs around if you have them. I mean yeah if i had kids, id teach them about guns all the time and let them hold them and stuff, but i wouldent take that chance with a glock, you just never know.
No Beretta 92's
All i can say is Beretta 92? no, runaway, runaway.
anything but beretta 92. Its a fact, locking lugs brake and they aren't that cheap either. We had one on a range that was pretty dependable. you could depend on it to break a locking lug every 500-5000 rnds. Look at the Brigadier model they made a few years ago with a beefed up slide and lug area. it was supposed to be for serious shooters. I thought it was kind of an admonition that the 92 series was under engineered.
All i can say is Beretta 92? no, runaway, runaway.
anything but beretta 92. Its a fact, locking lugs brake and they aren't that cheap either. We had one on a range that was pretty dependable. you could depend on it to break a locking lug every 500-5000 rnds. Look at the Brigadier model they made a few years ago with a beefed up slide and lug area. it was supposed to be for serious shooters. I thought it was kind of an admonition that the 92 series was under engineered.
I'd like to see one documented case of a Beretta locking block failure. I've searched online a number of times and can't find a single one.
I know a lot of people will say "a friend of a friend broke his," or "the PD 200 miles away breaks them," but I mean written or visual proof. I doubt many people on this forum will be able to supply this. It's not that I think everyone is lying, but there are too many people posting Beretta horror stories to be taken seriously. My Beretta is the best 9mm I've ever fired and I'd recommend it to anyone.
I know a lot of people will say "a friend of a friend broke his," or "the PD 200 miles away breaks them," but I mean written or visual proof. I doubt many people on this forum will be able to supply this. It's not that I think everyone is lying, but there are too many people posting Beretta horror stories to be taken seriously. My Beretta is the best 9mm I've ever fired and I'd recommend it to anyone.
Beretta 92
I will just share my experiences with you, because I have no proof you will have to take my word for it. I managed a indoor range in Vacaville CA for. We wouldn't even rent Beretta's for a few years because of the problems. Then in around 95, Beretta started a range purchase program and we got better deals and repair prices on the guns themselves and decided to rent them again. It was a popular gun and saw good rental/use. (thanks to the US military and Mel Gibson). As i recall the gun busted the lugs 3 times in less than 6 months. The fist two times were after around 5k rounds (we kept records of the use for each gun). The third time was after about 500 rnds
.
I recall that we also had a similiar problem with Taurus (PT92) but they would actually send us extra lugs to drop in, in case of failure. Beretta required that we send them the gun back (I think now they will just send you the part) which was fixed and returned along with a bill for between $75-$150. I I know that one time we found that the taurus 92 lugs actually fit and functioned in the beretta (as that might of been a short term fix). I can provide you with probable references to others that witnessed the same things. To be fair to beretta, our range guns were abused and hardly ever cleaned (only when misfunctioning) and only semi-routinely lubricated.
I will just share my experiences with you, because I have no proof you will have to take my word for it. I managed a indoor range in Vacaville CA for. We wouldn't even rent Beretta's for a few years because of the problems. Then in around 95, Beretta started a range purchase program and we got better deals and repair prices on the guns themselves and decided to rent them again. It was a popular gun and saw good rental/use. (thanks to the US military and Mel Gibson). As i recall the gun busted the lugs 3 times in less than 6 months. The fist two times were after around 5k rounds (we kept records of the use for each gun). The third time was after about 500 rnds
.I recall that we also had a similiar problem with Taurus (PT92) but they would actually send us extra lugs to drop in, in case of failure. Beretta required that we send them the gun back (I think now they will just send you the part) which was fixed and returned along with a bill for between $75-$150. I I know that one time we found that the taurus 92 lugs actually fit and functioned in the beretta (as that might of been a short term fix). I can provide you with probable references to others that witnessed the same things. To be fair to beretta, our range guns were abused and hardly ever cleaned (only when misfunctioning) and only semi-routinely lubricated.
Mithirium,
I don't disbelieve what you say.
I do agree with .357SIG in that people are quick to tell about all the problems that the Beretta has, but very few (you being one of the only ones I've heard from firsthand) have actually seen the problems they speak of firsthand. I tend to discount those instances because on the internet anyone can say anything about anything (and they quite frequently do).
Did you require your rentals to use factory ammo only? Was remanufactured ammo or reloaded ammo allowed with the rentals? Did you ever see any of your rental Berettas crack their slides or frames? how many rounds would a Beretta take before you ritired it from rental?
Sorry for all the questions, I am just interested in hearing from people who have seen these kinds of things. Again, I believe what you say, just interested.
Shake
I don't disbelieve what you say.
I do agree with .357SIG in that people are quick to tell about all the problems that the Beretta has, but very few (you being one of the only ones I've heard from firsthand) have actually seen the problems they speak of firsthand. I tend to discount those instances because on the internet anyone can say anything about anything (and they quite frequently do).
Did you require your rentals to use factory ammo only? Was remanufactured ammo or reloaded ammo allowed with the rentals? Did you ever see any of your rental Berettas crack their slides or frames? how many rounds would a Beretta take before you ritired it from rental?
Sorry for all the questions, I am just interested in hearing from people who have seen these kinds of things. Again, I believe what you say, just interested.
Shake
Shake,
We did require that the rentals only use our ammo , nothing from the ouside. We used only Miwall Corp 9mm, they are a generic manufacture brand out of central CA. The rounds weren't reloads as they used new components. They were probably a notch below your average USA/UMC/AmericanEagle target stuff which we would use on occasion if Miwall was short ammo. I never saw a frame or slide crack on a beretta. We used to like to get most guns to shoot 25-50k rounds before retiring them (selling them.....in other words dont buy used range guns). I think we settled on recycling berettas much faster at arount 5-10ktotal so as to not push our luck. Mainly from a business standpoint those decisions made on whether the manufacturers repaired their products for free, because if they did we would just let them keep replacing parts/frames/slides and not worry about it. beretta at the time would charge us for anything. On the opposite we had a G17 that broke after significant wear (like a slide crack on a g17 after 80k rounds,a torture test that other range guns never achieved) Glock just replaced it and sent it back to us, no questions asked.
Guys, I have nothing against beretta 92's, I like the feel of the pistols, I just dont think they are sound for a high volume of shooting (USPSA/IPSC/IDPA or Bullseye type stuff).
We did require that the rentals only use our ammo , nothing from the ouside. We used only Miwall Corp 9mm, they are a generic manufacture brand out of central CA. The rounds weren't reloads as they used new components. They were probably a notch below your average USA/UMC/AmericanEagle target stuff which we would use on occasion if Miwall was short ammo. I never saw a frame or slide crack on a beretta. We used to like to get most guns to shoot 25-50k rounds before retiring them (selling them.....
in other words dont buy used range guns). I think we settled on recycling berettas much faster at arount 5-10ktotal so as to not push our luck. Mainly from a business standpoint those decisions made on whether the manufacturers repaired their products for free, because if they did we would just let them keep replacing parts/frames/slides and not worry about it. beretta at the time would charge us for anything. On the opposite we had a G17 that broke after significant wear (like a slide crack on a g17 after 80k rounds,a torture test that other range guns never achieved) Glock just replaced it and sent it back to us, no questions asked.Guys, I have nothing against beretta 92's, I like the feel of the pistols, I just dont think they are sound for a high volume of shooting (USPSA/IPSC/IDPA or Bullseye type stuff).
I think that any of the three would be great. My wife has a Beretta custom carry, that she carries and she also has a p99, which was her first pistol and she loves it. The only reason that she doesn't carry it is the safety thing, she want's the manual safety that's on the Beretta. I also have a p99 and do carry it at times, however I carry a couger 8045 most of the time.. I have shot the h&K a few times but I dont like the way it fits in my hand.
The best fit it the Walther by far..............
The best fit it the Walther by far..............
Just read an interesting post in this forum. According to one person, the P99 slide and barrel are made by S&W on US import guns, and then they're assembled here to avoid German proofing expenses.
Of course, the internet is a terrible place to get information. Almost everything is heresay. For instance:
In the gulf in 1991, my friend Bob was hit in the head with the slide of his M9. He was not alone.
In 1996, several friends attending Marine Corps Basic School reported Berettas "permanently locking open", wherein the armorers on site acknowledged this common problem and took the weapons out of service. Your guess as to what sheared, cracked or wedged to cause this, the Marines didn't know.
In 2000, my friend Emmet's 92FS's barrel cracked in half at the forward locking stancion. He shot quite a bit of +P.
This is all heresay as I'm not a gulf war vet, Marine or Emmet. But it is right from their mouths to me.
But even if all that were true all you have to do is not shoot the 92 much in your lifetime and it's fine.
Shake- "99% of the shooter on this BB don't shoot 100 rounds per week, and an even smaller percentage do so with one firearm".
Certainly those incidents above the were examples of fairly used weapons. Of course, one of those 100% aluminum S&W revolvers made for the Air Force will hold up great if you don't shoot them much either.
You could also address any durability concerns by going to the even BIGGER, HEAVIER and THICKER Elite or Brigadier. 'Course, they use the same blocks and frames and 92 slides don't fail, so I don't understand the point of that reinforcement. I'm sure the 92 has some quality that sets it squarely ahead of the HK product, but I don't know what it is. Whatever, I'm done.
Of course, the internet is a terrible place to get information. Almost everything is heresay. For instance:
In the gulf in 1991, my friend Bob was hit in the head with the slide of his M9. He was not alone.
In 1996, several friends attending Marine Corps Basic School reported Berettas "permanently locking open", wherein the armorers on site acknowledged this common problem and took the weapons out of service. Your guess as to what sheared, cracked or wedged to cause this, the Marines didn't know.
In 2000, my friend Emmet's 92FS's barrel cracked in half at the forward locking stancion. He shot quite a bit of +P.
This is all heresay as I'm not a gulf war vet, Marine or Emmet. But it is right from their mouths to me.
But even if all that were true all you have to do is not shoot the 92 much in your lifetime and it's fine.
Shake- "99% of the shooter on this BB don't shoot 100 rounds per week, and an even smaller percentage do so with one firearm".
Certainly those incidents above the were examples of fairly used weapons. Of course, one of those 100% aluminum S&W revolvers made for the Air Force will hold up great if you don't shoot them much either.
You could also address any durability concerns by going to the even BIGGER, HEAVIER and THICKER Elite or Brigadier. 'Course, they use the same blocks and frames and 92 slides don't fail, so I don't understand the point of that reinforcement. I'm sure the 92 has some quality that sets it squarely ahead of the HK product, but I don't know what it is. Whatever, I'm done.