Being a Christian and Carrying a gun

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For you Latter-day Saints out there...


David's Outcasts - http://www.GreaterThings.com/OpenForum/Davids_Outcasts/

Contribution by Mr. Black, non-LDS concerning our right to defend
virtuous principles. --David


From: "Mr. Black"
Subject: FYI. Joseph Smith on Bearing Arms & Self-Defense
dgb

To All:

Joseph Smith, Jr. on the Rights of Bearing Arms and Self-Defense:

"...We feel to hope for the best, and are determined to prepare for the
worst. And we want this to be your motto in common with us, 'that we
will never ground our arms until we give them up by death--' 'Free trade
and sailors rights, protection of persons and property, wives and families.'
If a mob annoy you, defend yourselves to the very last, and if they fall
upon you with a superior force, and if you think you are not able to
compete with them, retreat to Nauvoo... act according to the emergency of
the case but never give up your arms, but die first...." -- Joseph Smith
Jr. to his Uncle John, Nauvoo, June 17, 1844. Source: "The Personal
Writings of Joseph Smith," compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret
Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1984, p. 591 (ISBN: 0-87747-974-7)

"There is one principle which is Eternal, it is the duty of all men to
protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity
requires. And no power has a right to forbid it." -- Joseph Smith Jr. to
his wife, Emma Smith, Carthage Jail, June 27, 1844. Source: "The
Personal Writings of Joseph Smith," compiled and edited by Dean C. Jessee,
Deseret Book, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1984, p. 611 (ISBN: 0-87747-974-7)

"Peace be still, bury the hatchet and the sword, the sound of war is
dreadful in my ear. [But] Any man who will not fight for his wife and
children is a coward and a bastard." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry,
January 29, 1843. Source: "An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and
Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books,
Inc. in association with Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah,
1989, p. 298 (ISBN: 0-941214-78-8)

"Constitution of the U[nited] S[tates] say, "Habeus Corpus shall not
be denied. Deny me the right to H[abeus] Corpus and I will fight with guns,
sword, cannon behind and thunder [afore] till I am used up, like
Killkenny Cats." -- Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, June 30, 1843. Source:
"An
American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith,"
edited by Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with
Smith Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 391 (ISBN:
0-941214-78-8)

"I swear in the name of the Almighty God with uplifted hand the
Legislature shall never take away our rights. I'll spill my heart's blood
first." --
Joseph Smith Jr., journal entry, June 30, 1843. Source: "An American
Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith," edited by
Scott H. Faulring, Signature Books, Inc. in association with Smith
Research Associates, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1989, p. 392 (ISBN:
0-941214-78-8)

Joseph Smith Jr. did spill his heart's blood in the Carthage IL jail, after wounding
three of his attackers by discharging a concealed firearm on June 27, 1844.


Joe

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http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com


[This message has been edited by nralife (edited August 13, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>SodaPoP
don,t go looking for trouble But the LORD looks after those that help themselves also I believe LUKE 22 let him who has no sword sell his garment and get one..Originally posted by SodaPop:
Does anyone else out there ever feel like a hypocrite? I personally carry only when I'm hiking or up in the mountains. I personally prefer not to carry If I don't think I'm going into a hot spot. For some reason the words "If you live by the sword You die by the sword" ring in my head. I heard something a few years ago about an Archbishop in the Catholic Church forbidding priests in I think New York or LA from carrying concealed handguns because it was against christian teachings. I know that the Apostles all carried Swords. (Anyone that doesn't believe me think about Which Apostle "Peter" drew his sword and cut off the ear of one of the Roman Soldiers)[/quote]
 
Hypocrite? Not at all.

1. Jesus himself told his followers to carry swords, even if that meant selling one's cloak to get the money for one.

2. "Live by the sword, die by the sword" - that was directed at the armed mob that had come to use weapons as a means of furthering their personal goals. I do not use my "sword" to obtain food, clothing, shelter, money or power - but there are people who DO use their "sword" to obtain such life-sustaining essentials; it is they who will die by the sword.

3. Anyone who believes that Christians should not carry weapons obviously has not read scripture, wherein using weapons to stop physically-manifest evil is common, expected, and often required. From David with his sling to Christ directing his followers to carry swords, the Bible is CLEAR on the subject. What many do not understand is that simple possession is largely meaningless - Christian teachings cover the mindset of the user.
http://www.donath.org/Rants/BiblicallyArmed for more details.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Gun control, or anything remotely like it.
They had knives, swords, archery, heavy slingshots capable of firing 1lb or more projectiles, spears, lots more. There were NO rules on who could carry them, weapons restrictions zones, age limits, limits on alien residents owning or carrying hardware, etc. Not one WORD on the subject.[/quote]

Not true, very few cultures in history have ever had free ownership of weaponry. In such cases as such weapons were free to own, the common man never did because he was too poor, or his masters said no. Romans in particular usually only allowed people in their conquered lands just enough weaponry to defend themselves on the highways and no more. This usually meant a sword, spears were too militarily viable and therefore were often not allowed. In Jewish rebellions against the Romans that was a big problem, the Romans had spears, shields, armor, etc, while the Jews usually had swords or even farm tools.

The truly sad thing about all this is, the US is one of the first nations in history to so fully place trust upon it's people, and now there are people hoping to stop that. They want to end something that humanity has never had before on any significant scale. Notice too how successful all countries in history have been that have trusted their people to arm themselves, definitely and interesting point. Where there is liberty there is success.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Dangus,

I believe that Jim is refering specifically to the Bible and the laws outlined in it for the tribes of Israel.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
Dennis,

You're welcome. There are quite a few LDS on these forums including myself. Occasionally, I here the Mormon Church lumped in with those who are supposed to be involved in some grand conspiracy to disarm America and the world for some kind of one world government plot. I can tell you first hand that the LDS are some of the most conservative, self reliant, gun friendly folk that I know of and it is highly unlikely that they would be involved with such a thing. :)

Joe
 
I will only say, given the above, that there are MORE than enough reasons/examples within the Christian Bible to be armed and prepared, and NOT be a hypocrite in doing so! The Good LORD knows evil resides here, and has allowed his people to defend against it. Not for 'murder', but in defense, but of not ONLY you and yours, but ALL that is His!
 
I'll tell you this.... When I was little I lived in India and the Religious persecution going over there by the Hindus is unbelievable. Both Muslem and Christians are murdered there every day by Hindus.
Judging by the number of you on this forum that responded to this, just goes to show how our Constitution really has Protected us. I see all the Media Bias and all the Left wing crap that goes on the tv and in the Media. But There's no way that Christians really would be physically persecuted in this country like they way they are in Africa and Asia.

I think Liberals could rewrite all the laws and take control of the Supreme Court but there are too many law enforcement/Military/Civilians that wouldn't obey. If you notice the present Rift between the Military and Clinton/Gore Administration you'll come to the conclusion there are too many Constitution Loving Men still around. The Left Wing just doesn't realise it. Or atleast they think we don't exist.
 
nralife:

Nice to see LDS out there. My wife and I are members too, although a little inactive. I have NEVER met a Mormon who is anti-gun.

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Gun control started the Revolutionary War!..."itcta alea est"
 
This is practically a nonissue for those who have done their homework and are not pacifists in all other areas of their lives.

Contrary to popular opinion Christianity is not exclusively the property of little old ladies. The God of the Old Testament and Jesus in the new sought justice--which does not always mean being 'nice' or even nonviolent.

Christ died on the cross for us as part of a Plan--not because he was a pacifist.

There are LOTS of citations to support CCW and self-defense.

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Even though I am not fond of the religion as a whole, I definitely have a great respect for the organizational integrity of the LDS church, and their strong beliefs in conservative values.

Unfortunately though, I think when the average non-Mormon person hears that Mormons are pro-gun, they are turned off to the gun issue. I think that's unfortunate, because even though I don't like the religion, it really does have some very sensible rules for living(such as being prepared for disasters, protecting your family, etc).

Frankly I think, just like the government, the gun lobby should really keep itself neutral either way on religions. Really, there's too much difference on religion to confuse the gun issue with it, it really is a whole different issue, though perhaps for individuals it may be an issue, but ultimately that's the individual's perogative. Not that I'm saying this thread is bad, asking for advice on the issue is no biggy, but I'm just saying as a group we should not equate one with the other.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Dangus, you misunderstood me.

From the time the Jews left Egypt, they existed as a totally free and independant nation, operating under a set of rules handed down direct from God.

Those rules included nothing even remotely resembling "gun control".

There were at least three periods during which foreign invaders ruled the Jews, under the Babylonians, Greeks and then Romans by the time Jesus showed up. I think I may have missed one...the Medes under Xerxes I think? Whatever. Yes, those invaders probably imposed weapons controls, the Romans definately did.

But that has nothing to do with "figuring out God's will via the Bible".

Jim
 
Still, I bet if an average guy had created a seige weapon and formed a militia king David would have had him killed.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Read the Book of Psalms, lots of material relating to struggles, both spiritual and material. Nothing sinful about self-defense.
 
I am a born again Christian. I do not beleive in "accidents" or" coincidence." I do not beleive in "luck".

I realize that not all Christians feel comfortable with carrying weapons. Fact of the matter is , most have never given it thought and those that have are generally brainwashed to accept what society feeds them whether it be contrary to bibical teachings or not.

If you read the Book , some of the most ferocious warriors that ever lived are mentioned in the old testament. There are many accounts of a single man killing 100,200,300 people and Samson killed a 1000 men in one afternoon.
These man were not cowards. These men fought for pricipals, and they fought without regard for their lives.The fact that most of them killed that many with swords or spears or even a jawbone is remarkable. Imagine the level of endurance it would have taken to swing a sword for any amount of time.

I have said that I do not beleive in coincidence. I beleive that ALL things happen for a reason. If you happen upon a man being robbed and beaten by multiple thugs, would you leave or do the neighborly thing and lend a hand ?

My first thought would be that perhaps I was there to save the life of that man. However I may do it would be irrevalant. If I had to pull my.45 out to persuade the thugs to leave or if I had to cap one or two of them to save the life of an innocent,I would beleive that I was there for a reason.

I beleive it is a mans responsiblity to take care of himself and his family. IF he be with his friends and they expieriance difficultys of one sort or another I beleive it would be nieghborly to offer help.

There is a saying that I beleive to be true, but I dont remember who said it : "Evil prevails when good men stand by and do nothing".

I beleive that one day we will be judged for our stand against evil. It is usally much easier to turn away and ignore something that is not right, because it might take much effort to try to correct what is wrong.

I choose to be armed. I choose not to be a victim. I choose to be able to lend a hand if need be. I will not be defenseless.

Is that unchristian ? Only if you are a liberal christian that does not understand or read the Bible.
One thing I have noticed about most"antigun" so called- christians.
They want no mention of religion in public, denying its impact on our lives,
The government is their god.
They are against the death penalty but for abortion.
They are pro -homosexual
They think is ok to have sex with another mans wife.
They think they can go to church on Sunday and be ok, yet raise hell all week.
They are usaully pro socialist.
The think that Jesus Christ was a weakling.
They think that Peter actually tried to cut off a Romans soilders ear...without realizing that Peter simply missed his HEAD.
 
Originally posted by Watchman:
Watchman I like your post but the part about Peter Swinging for the Soldiers head never occured to me. I think I'm ond of those dumb Christians that thought he was swinging for his ear. I'm sure your right I'm lauging hysterically at my stupidity!
Click to expand...
 
Watchman -
Hmmm. I'd never really thought about that before, but I'm sure you're probably right about the ear. I suppose that if Peter had had low-light tactical training, his aim might have been more true... (Oh well, they probably didn't have "Swordsite" or somesuch.)

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
 
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