Beginning Rifle?

[gb_in_ga]

A 150 gr RN drops almost 17 inches at 300 when zeroed at 200 ...... 10" of that between 250 and 300..... and rises to +4" between 100 and 150 yards...... wind drift with a 10 mph crosswind is over 20", so add a windmeter and laser rangefinder in there if you want to take a 300 yard shot with the thutty-thutty ........ that and hope the deer does not move in the half a second the bullet takes to get there.

There you go -- stuck on the 150 gr RN. Yeah, a 150 gr RN is like that. Try using Hornady's 160 gr FTX.

Let's see now -- if my brother can take down 3 javelina with 3 shots using a .308 Win with 150 gr pointy bullets at around 2600 fps at 300+ yards (which he did), then it should be pretty similar to using a .30-30 with 160 gr pointy bullets at around 2250 fps. If he can reliably hit javalina at that range with the one, you can likewise hit deer at that range with the other.

 

[gb_in_ga]

He can easily get a bolt with a scope for within his budget, even buying new.

Yeah, but is it going to be a scope that he'd actually want to put on it? I wouldn't. Spend more than $200 on your scope. Just trust me on this. And that leaves how much left for the rifle? Do you really want a bolt action rifle for that kind of money? No point handicapping yourself.

Besides, for longer shots, he will want a scope for a 30-30 anyways.

True. But you can put that $200 scope on a (good condition) $250 .30-30 and have a decent hunting package. Within budget.

A 270 or 30-06 would be 1" high at a hundred and about 2" low at 200. That is a definite advantage when you consider that most people are terrible at judging long distances. A few minutes spent with a rangefinder can be very humbling.

True enough. But since most (but not all) people never hunt much over 200 yards anyway it is a moot point. I'm a case in point. Even when using other, flatter rounds, I've never taken a deer over 200 yards. I've just never needed to. And that is in Tx, where you can have both open country as well as in thick brush on the same piece of property. It is nice to know that I could stretch it on out if I needed to, but I haven't needed it -- yet.

 

[jimbob86]

+1 on the .270

I consider that round to be more of an open country round -- longer ranges. I wouldn't choose it if you were looking at shorter range hunting in brush country.

It works just fine at short range, too.

Fast handling is more a function of familiarity with the weapon than weapon design. I would rather attempt a shot on a running deer at close range with my scoped .270 bolt gun than a shorty 30/30, simply because I have much more experience shooting the former (given a choice of any gun to hit a running deer at under 25 yards, I'd take my 12 guage shotgun with slugs, as I have way more experience swinging that on moving targets than any rifle).

 

[SRH78]

There you go -- stuck on the 150 gr RN. Yeah, a 150 gr RN is like that. Try using Hornady's 160 gr FTX.

Let's see now -- if my brother can take down 3 javelina with 3 shots using a .308 Win with 150 gr pointy bullets at around 2600 fps at 300+ yards (which he did), then it should be pretty similar to using a .30-30 with 160 gr pointy bullets at around 2250 fps. If he can reliably hit javalina at that range with the one, you can likewise hit deer at that range with the other.

The problem here is not just the trajectory difference. With the 308, there are lots of different choices in ammo so that you can find something your rifle shoots well. With the 30-30, assuming you don't handload, you have the Hornady load and that is it. If your rifle doesn't like that particular load, you are just out of luck if you want accuracy and trajectory at that distance. Add in the fact that the bolt is typically a little more accurate and it is clearly the better tool for the job. Also, consider that some bolts, Savage included, have an adjustable trigger and the longer shots get even easier. You could drive nails with a wrench but why use a wrench when you could use a hammer? We are talking about someone looking to buy his first centerfire rifle. Why handicap him?

 

[gb_in_ga]

It works just fine at short range, too.

Nah -- overkill. Velocity is too high, too much meat damage for my taste. Not unless I knew that all I was going to be taking was long range shots, so that there was enough velocity loss to keep the meat loss to a minimum.

Something about this one time my father took a forward looking quartering shot on a deer at about 75 yards with a 7mm Rem mag (similar performance to a .270). It blew out one whole shoulder and both hams. No, thanks.

I personally prefer a shorter, lighter, faster handling weapon. Big heavy poles have their place, but if I'm going to be hiking up that big hill, or down that steep ravine, I want something light. And in tight quarters in brush, I want something short and handy. Thus, the ol' .30-30 suits my needs pretty well. YMMV, of course.

 

[gb_in_ga]

With the 30-30, assuming you don't handload, you have the Hornady load and that is it.

But I do handload. And the FTX bullet seems to work well for me. Yeah, some rifles don't like it, and that is a problem.

FWIW, that Hornady load/bullet is becoming so popular that I wouldn't be at all surprised if the other major ammo manufacturers make their own permutation of it. Just because there is only the one (or is it now 2? They were working on an all guilding metal version of it, last I checked.) bullet in that class available doesn't mean that will always be the case.

 

[SRH78]

Nah -- overkill. Velocity is too high, too much meat damage for my taste. Not unless I knew that all I was going to be taking was long range shots, so that there was enough velocity loss to keep the meat loss to a minimum.

This is largely a product of bullet construction. If you don't want to ruin a lot of meat, use a tougher bullet.

 

[gb_in_ga]

Why handicap him?

Handy, lightweight, inexpensive rifle -- check.
Inexpensive ammo -- check.
That same inexpensive ammo is ubiquitous -- check.
Moderate recoil -- check.
Decent accuracy (.30-30 is actually a decently accurate round) -- check.
Adequate performance for most hunting situations at reasonable ranges -- check.
Works reasonably well with open sights. Heck, even HAS open sights -- check.

How is this handicapping him?

 

[gb_in_ga]

This is largely a product of bullet construction. If you don't want to ruin a lot of meat, use a tougher bullet.

That deer was blown apart by a 150 gr Nosler Partition. It don't get much tougher than that, and it still blew him apart.

 

[jbuck92]

I think I'll start looking around for a Marlin 336W or C then. I think that's actually the 30/30 I used to shoot my first kill just the other week at the ranch. My girlfriend's grandfather stocks exotics so I got to kill a blackbuck with a 30/30. 19 inch horns on that thing. Waiting for the head mount to be finished!

Anyways, I listed elk as a maybe. I'll most likely be shooting deer (once again, if I can find land for it). I don't know much about handloading at all, so at this point I'll probably be shooting factory ammunition. I'm going to try to sift through all these posts again and see if I can find out, but what would you guys recommend be a good shell for a 30/30? And I read that there's a difference between pointy ammunition and blunt-nosed ammunition when using it in a 30/30. Something to do with the loading mechanism? If I recall correctly sometimes the pointy ones don't load correctly. But I could be completely wrong in thinking that.

 

[Palmetto-Pride]

Anyone have an opinion on what kind of rifles I should look at? I'm looking for one that is good for game hunting (deer, elk, axis, blackbuck, etc.) and for target shooting.

While I love shooting it, for the next rifle I buy I'd prefer a bolt-action or lever.

I am not sure how this has turned into a 30/30 lever vs. every other gun / caliber thread.......lol While I think lever actions have there place (brush gun for deer) I think there are way better options for a first time all around (deer, elk, axis, blackbuck, etc.) hunting rifle. If it were me......oh wait this was me about 20yrs ago. I was making the same decision I was steered towards a bolt action Remington 700 .270 I got it and I never regretted it, killed pleanty of deer and hogs with it. It has done everything that old man told me it would do. I have since bought other rifles and calibers since then for just because. One thing to remember this is your first big rifle purchase it doesn't have to be your last.

 

[WildBill45]

First rifle is easy ... An ought-six!

In everyone's life there is a summer of 42', and an ought-six!

First rifles should use common ammunition, and there is nothing more common or available at any place that sells guns or ammunition than the 30'06!

The caliber is just right for deer, and ok for elk! Since the caliber is common, finding one used is easy, and since it is common the price can be right! If you find one in good shape with iron sights, you can always get a scope next year! Anyone you find that reloads will have a set-up for an ought-six, and brass is easy to get. If you buy factory loads, no caliber has more choices with most manufacturers of ammo than the Ought-six!

You will notice that most other caliber users always say, "It is as good as a 30'06!" Well, why should you have to have 'as good' when you can have the real deal? You are starting with a clean slate, so do it right!
30'06!!!

Get a 30'06 and you are set for life, or, starting right where you should be!

 

[gb_in_ga]

First rifles should use common ammunition, and there is nothing more common or available at any place that sells guns or ammunition than the 30'06!

Neither .308 Win nor .30-30 are exactly rare or exotic. I'd venture to say that .30-30 is just as ubiquitous as .30-06. And who doesn't carry .308 Win?

 

[pabuckslayer08]

Welcome, the 30-30 is a very popular rifle and has taken lots of deer. Probably more than any other caliber out there. That being said, to me its not the best rifle caliber for large game. Its heavy and rather slow and many options are much better than it. A .243 is very accurate and easy on the shoulder and great for varmits and deer, if larger game is desired and longer shots try a .270 or 30-06. All are great guns, as far as a 500 dollar limit I would look for a T/C Venture, best 400 dollar gun made, 1" moa guarentee from the box so you cant beat it, then go find a scope thats decent to start with and you will have a nice setup. Nikon usually has sales on the Prostaff at 100 bucks which is unbeatable for the price

 

[Abel]

If you, as a hunter, can put your self within 175 yards of your game, the 30-30 will put it down humanely and quickly if you do your part and place a good shot. If you know that you will regularly shoot out past 200 yards, get a 25-06 or a 7mm-08. Otherwise, the 30-30 is plenty of gun.

 

[jimbob86]

.270 overkill?

Nah -- overkill. Velocity is too high, too much meat damage for my taste.

To avoid meat damage, avoid shooting the animal in the meat. Placement, as they say, is everything.......

That and a bullet soft enough not to penetate too much on the close shots, yet having enough energy to mushroom on the long shots...... I like Sierra's 150gr Game Kings out of my .270 WIN, started @2900 f/sec.

Lungs are not edible (at least not by me) and are a large target, and deer don't go far when hit there.


As for a Partition, the worst I ever messed a deer up was with a pair of Nosler Partitions ...... out of a a .30/30, no less. A 170 grain Partition launched at 2200 f/sec will at 50 yards, go in a deer's shoulder and go out his far side ham, as well.......

Let's see now -- if my brother can take down 3 javelina with 3 shots using a .308 Win with 150 gr pointy bullets at around 2600 fps at 300+ yards (which he did), then it should be pretty similar to using a .30-30 with 160 gr pointy bullets at around 2250 fps. If he can reliably hit javalina at that range with the one, you can likewise hit deer at that range with the other.

The FTX isn't magic ....it is a pointed bullet that can be loaded in a tube magazine. While it does have better BC than a 150 round nose, it starts slower (unless you are using Hornady's magic Superformance Ammo and a 24 inch barrel) .... it's still dropping a foot from a 100 yard zero, still taking 4 tenths of a second to reach 300 yards and still drifting more than a foot in a 10mph crosswind...... while it may be the best bullet for longer range for the 30/30, it still does not make the 30/30 a 300 yard deer gun.

I looked into loading the FTX for my daughter's 30/30 ..... I concluded that it would turn a 200 yard gun into a 250 yard gun. I could not justify the cost.

 

[Buzzcook]

And I read that there's a difference between pointy ammunition and blunt-nosed ammunition when using it in a 30/30. Something to do with the loading mechanism? If I recall correctly sometimes the pointy ones don't load correctly. But I could be completely wrong in thinking that.

The problem with pointy bullets is the point. The Marlin 336 has a tube fed magazine. That means that the pointy part would set on the primer of the bullet in front of it. Most people tend to think that is a bad thing.
There is an alternative, Hornady "leverevelution" cartridges. These have plastic points so the danger of bad things happening is less.

 

[jimbob86]

That means that the pointy part would set on the primer of the bullet in front of it. Most people tend to think that is a bad thing.

Yeah, having the magazine tube on one's rifle explode is generally considered a bad ...... no, wait, a VERY BAD THING.

 

[BlueCord]

OP, there have been many great suggestions here and I'm not knocking any of them. Lotta great info.

You didn't mention anything about other firearms you own or calibers. Given that you mentioned the word "RANCH" more than once, carry via horse back can be cumbersome with bolt actions and pumps. You did mention a lever action 30/30. Great brush gun, slim in the scabbord on saddle, and since I see you might lean in that direction, I suggest looking at Lever Action .44 Magnum rifles. 44 mag rifles have similiar if not better performance than
30/30's, you also have the capability of adding a handgun as a sidearm, which, will fire the exact same catridges. So in essence, you would be purchasing a caliber as it can be used in rifles and handguns, giving you more flexibility for various situations.

Some members here have state the tubular magazine on lever actions limits you to round nose bullets. I disagree. With the invention of Lever-lution ammo, accidental discharge in the magazine has been all but elminated.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/leverevolution.htm

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3081825

BC

 

[Gehrhard]

Because you included medium/big game the .223 bolt-action is out but woulda been the choice to go with.

.243 if you are more target/general hunting oriented and .308 if you are more long-range target/big-game hunting oriented. The .243 is a .308 cartridge squeezed down to shoot a smaller, faster, .24 caliber vs. a .30. Both are common, plentiful, versatle, and relatively inexpensive (though not as low as the .223).

As for a gun, used bolt-action may be a wise choice. New Savages seem to be quite a value for the money though.