Before i post... distance purchase question

G

gianelli280

New member
I'm currently deployed in Africa, how would i go about buying a rifle should i find a good deal? I know it sounds shady, but would i be able to have a friend stateside complete an FFL transfer, and then buy it off him? Are there other ways to go about it?

Thanks!
 
If you have a dealer you trust, you could have the gun sent to him and have him hold it until you return home.

Otherwise, just wait until you get back.
 
You could have a friend/relative do the transaction in most areas as long as it was a private sale.

If you want to get it from a FFL, you'd need to have a trusted FFL/shop keep it for you as previously suggested. I know my unit has a gunshop owner as a 1st Sgt and there are 2 brothers (officers) in another company who have gunstores. Maybe your unit has someone in a similar position.
 
would i be able to have a friend stateside complete an FFL transfer, and then buy it off him?
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This is getting into straw man purchase territory.

It's best to wait or find a dealer that will hold it for you.
 
Written by FrakShow10mm:
This is getting into straw man purchase territory.
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Ditto this. I would tread lightly when it come to having someone buy a firearm for you, to purchase later. It's been a while since I had an FFL, but I think this goes beyond the gray area of a transaction. You could be getting into more trouble then you might imagine.

Thanks,
Jim
 
Father or mother makes no difference as far as gifts and GCA. I think the confusion there is with bequests in an estate as established by a will or other document. Anyway, It is absolutely perfectly legal for anyone not otherwise prohibited from purchasing the firearm to purchase it and then to turn around and sell it to you later, as long as all sales/transfers comply with state and Federal laws. A straw purchase is specifically when the person making the purchase is claiming to be someone else, or the person is purchasing the firearm specifically for the purpose of providing that firearm to a person who is otherwise ineligible to receive that firearm themselves.

The person buying the firearm would have to be a resident of the same state as you are in order to give/sell the firearm to you - again complying with state laws regarding private sales.
 
This is from the ATF website. The situation described above would not be a straw purchase because there is no intent to hide the identity of the true purchaser. This could be proven by the first purchaser of the firearm writing a bill of sale to the second purchaser stating, I, gianelli280, did purchase one whatever gun, serial number XXX, from Joe Smoe for the price of $XXXX on April 15, 2008. Signed: gianelli280. Joe Smoe keeps the bill of sale. Everything would be legal and up front.

http://www.atf.gov/field/philadelphia/press/050101straw.htm
The purpose of this partnership is to educate the public concerning the illegality of "straw purchases". A "straw purchase" is a situation in which a person is using a "straw purchaser"(another person) to acquire one or more firearms from a Federally licensed firearms dealer, to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm/s.
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Well, you can do it either way, let your friend get it (if its a really great deal you absolutely cannot pass up) or wait until you can get back and use it.

When the FFL does the background check, they'll do it on the person who came in. So that would be your friend. Of course, he could easily do a FTF transfer to you later (within the same state of course - check your laws). I did the same thing with my dad. He picked up a pistol for me back home, and we are residents of the same state, we just did a FTF transfer.



And I'm seeing 'straw purchase' thrown around - this isn't a case of it. Read the laws before you go confusing everyone who reads the thread on what a straw purchase actually is. LT posted good info.
 
And from this site: the key is the second purchaser or receiver of the firearm being prohibited from buying or receiving that gun themselves.
http://www.dontlie.org/

What began as a retailer education program now includes a public awareness component, with enthusiastic participation by public officials including top federal prosecutors, U.S. Attorneys, in different states. Public service messages warn individuals not to purchase a gun for a prohibited person.

and

While it is legal to purchase a firearm as a gift for another, it is illegal to purchase a firearm for someone prohibited by law from posessing a gun.

Of course, if I was your friend purchasing the gun, I would fulfill all obligations and make sure that gun shoots good before you got back! :-)
 
People can read the rules and certainly apply there own logic to it. In almost every case they will believe it says something different then the next guy. Human nature I suppose. If you really want a true test to see if this type of deal will fly. Be honest with the dealer. Walk into a gun shop and tell the dealer that you are buying this gun for a friend. Also tell him that your friend is out of the country and is going to give him the money in exchange for the gun when he returns state side. I believe you will go through a few gun stores before someone finally says. Quite giving to much information and just buy the gun.

I know, I know, in reality no one would be the wiser to this transaction. I also know that this type of thing is probably done everyday. I also believe that the poster is honestly trying to do the right thing and be on the up and up with a gun deal. So in the end it is really his decission on how to approach the dealer. The gun dealer will have the final say no matter what is dicussed here. That is only because it's his FFL that is on the line if it turns out to be a bad tranaction.

Here is a link showing the 4473 form that is required. Look at the example 1 given on page 3. According to the information given by the poster this will not be a gift. So it is someone purchasing as gun for someone else.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/4473/index.htm

Gray areas are scary sometime. Just becareful and know what might happen if you're wrong.

Jim
 
A gun dealer has no need, nor any right to know what I plan to do with the gun I am purchasing, and I will refuse to give them any of that particular information. All the dealer has to be concerned with is: did I prove, according to the requirements of Federal and State laws, that I am who I am claiming to be and a resident of the state I am claiming to be a resident of. Do I pass the requirements of the background check required by Federal and State Laws. Is there anything I entered on the 4473 that will disqualify me from the purchase. Am I of legal age, according to Federal and State laws to purchase the firearm.

Anything beyond that, unless I disclose it voluntarily, is of no concern to the dealer, I will not disclose anything more than that to the dealer, and I would not do business with any dealer who expected anything more than that.

The bottom line is this: I am the purchaser of this firearm. I am legal to purchase this firearm. Once I purchase this firearm it is mine to legally dispose of it as I see fit. I can take this firearm out and shoot it the same day that I buy it, don't like it, sell it someone else, all on the same day. Or I can take this firearm out of the store and someone sees me walking on the sidewalk with it, says nice gun, I say you want to buy it, sure, there you go (as long as the person buying it is legal). I am the legal purchaser of the firearm and I can do with it as I please and selling it to my friend when he returns from overseas is a perfectly legal thing to do with it.
 
I still say the only way to find out if this qualifies as a straw sale is to ask a dealer. This has nothing to do with any of us buying a gun or our feelings about this issue. It is to find out for this poster if in fact this type of transaction is illegal.


Jim
 
A gun dealer has no need, nor any right to know what I plan to do with the gun I am purchasing,
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+1

They have no need to know. The laws regarding what IS a straw purchase have been posted. This is not a straw purchase.

There us no room for "feeling". It is, or it isn't.
 
Question 12a on Form 4473:
Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? (Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are aquiring this firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, The dealer can not transfer the firearm(s) to you.)

Given the information that the poster has given. The buyer would have to answer "NO" to this question. In turn the dealer would not sell the firearm to him. So whether we call this a straw sale or not. If this question is answered honestly. The sale would not go through.


Shorts & NavyLT,
We are probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I personally would not do this for anyone. Not even a family member. However that is just my opinion and we all know what those are worth these days.

Jim
 
lol Everyone's got one! ;)

It is my understanding that "actual buyer" is merely the person handing the money to the clerk. It is that person handing the money to the clerk who will have the 4473 form done. That is how I'm reading "the buyer". Again, this is all from my experience in the same scenario. My husband and are currently stationed out of country, which the dealer actually did know and what he said mattered was who was actually taking the gun from the store. It would have to be that person who is on the 4473 and who physically handed the money to the clerk. Just our experience in, what I see, is almost the same situation (the difference being it is a friend rather than family relationship). Again YMMV for the sake of opinion.

Outside of the store, the dealer has no more legal obligation to enforce any laws further than what he has already complied with during the purchase of said gun.

Is there a definition of "buyer" supplied pertaining to this written somewhere?
 
That's a good question and I think that is where the problems arise when applying this rule. The term "buyer" seems to be the person who initiates the purchase. That could be the person at the counter with the money. Or it could also be the person asking someone to purchase the gun for them. I don't recall seeing a definition of the term "buyer" anywhere other then in the question 12a on the form.

I will always error on the side of safety so to speak in these types of situations. Once the government has a reason to look into your life. It's hard to get them out. Boy, that sounded like I am a little paranoid didn't it. :)

I agree that once the gun is outside the door. The dealer has no further obligation to the tranaction.

Take care,
Jim
 
I will always error on the side of safety so to speak in these types of situations. Once the government has a reason to look into your life. It's hard to get them out. Boy, that sounded like I am a little paranoid didn't it.
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...Big Brother? What? Who said that? :D
 
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