Beating the SWAT team, Your suggestions, Part 2
- Thread starter Dennis
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
here we go again...
One thing about this post is that nobody defines "beat". If your disposition is to survive the encounter you have one set of tactics, stacking up bodies is another. Destroying your attacker(s) and emerging victorious is IMHO simply undoable.
I think that your best bet (if surrender is not your choice) is to punch a hole or three in their perimeter and run like a striped a__ ape.
The bottom line is that the initiative rests with the attacker. If that's "them" you now are in a reactive mode and action almost always beats reaction.
If you really think you may be targeted, sleeping in the across the street neighbors house or yard may be your only hope.
I have noticed that SWAT teams have an almost universal failing in that they don't pay much attention to their flank security or their focus is almost all ways directed towards the target.
Giz
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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
One thing about this post is that nobody defines "beat". If your disposition is to survive the encounter you have one set of tactics, stacking up bodies is another. Destroying your attacker(s) and emerging victorious is IMHO simply undoable.
I think that your best bet (if surrender is not your choice) is to punch a hole or three in their perimeter and run like a striped a__ ape.
The bottom line is that the initiative rests with the attacker. If that's "them" you now are in a reactive mode and action almost always beats reaction.
If you really think you may be targeted, sleeping in the across the street neighbors house or yard may be your only hope.
I have noticed that SWAT teams have an almost universal failing in that they don't pay much attention to their flank security or their focus is almost all ways directed towards the target.
Giz
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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
1. If it's a case of "Oops, wrong address", I'd guess you're just gonna have to be as cooperative as possible--and endure.
2. Give some thought as to why a SWAT team would pick your residence. Why? Maybe you should move and "start over". Or, make a dramatic change in your behavior. Also, re-check your "friends", considering whether you'll be judged by some bad company you keep.
3. If feasible, acquire casual acquaintance with your local law enforcement, constable, JP, Co. judge, etc. Not "brown-nosy", but be known to them as a good guy.
4. Otherwise, spend a notable amount of $$ in making your residence "harder" against any sort of forced entry. Doors which cannot be broken down short of powerful breaching charges; windows not susceptible to gas or flash-bang grenades. And a PA system so you can say, "I'm unarmed and coming out."
5. Otherwise, redifine "winning" as living through it.
FWIW, Art
2. Give some thought as to why a SWAT team would pick your residence. Why? Maybe you should move and "start over". Or, make a dramatic change in your behavior. Also, re-check your "friends", considering whether you'll be judged by some bad company you keep.
3. If feasible, acquire casual acquaintance with your local law enforcement, constable, JP, Co. judge, etc. Not "brown-nosy", but be known to them as a good guy.
4. Otherwise, spend a notable amount of $$ in making your residence "harder" against any sort of forced entry. Doors which cannot be broken down short of powerful breaching charges; windows not susceptible to gas or flash-bang grenades. And a PA system so you can say, "I'm unarmed and coming out."
5. Otherwise, redifine "winning" as living through it.
FWIW, Art
Ed Brunner
New member
Consider this: Over the years we have given up inumerable rights on the premise that it makes law enforcement easier and safer for the law enforcers.
Let them go back to protecting OUR rights and if it is too tough for them then find another job.
In a WAR people are killed as a convenience or an expedient. Lets do away with the WAR on Crime idea.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Let them go back to protecting OUR rights and if it is too tough for them then find another job.
In a WAR people are killed as a convenience or an expedient. Lets do away with the WAR on Crime idea.
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Better days to be,
Ed
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Ed, I know what you mean. I haven't given up diddly, though. Tell all the valiant stormtroopers this: Get a no knock warrant for my house signed by every member of the Supreme Court, countersigned by the President, Vice-President, every Cabinet Member, 100 Senators, and 435 Congressmen and women. Hold a national referendum on breaking in my house. Win it 80 million registered voters for to one against. Come to my house and break in. See what happens.
Might not be a single valiant stormtrooper dead. I might not be either for they could get in before I could wake up and reach the 10 loaded weapons within reach of my bed. But, let them screw up and let me free afterwards.
Victory in warfare is defined as obtaining one's objectives. It is possible to survive while killing every opponent and still be the loser if you do not obtain your objective while the enemy-even in death- does obtain their objectives. In this scenario, my primary objective would be to give an object lesson to the jack booted thugs: Don't tread on me.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur
[This message has been edited by Spartacus (edited August 29, 1999).]
Might not be a single valiant stormtrooper dead. I might not be either for they could get in before I could wake up and reach the 10 loaded weapons within reach of my bed. But, let them screw up and let me free afterwards.
Victory in warfare is defined as obtaining one's objectives. It is possible to survive while killing every opponent and still be the loser if you do not obtain your objective while the enemy-even in death- does obtain their objectives. In this scenario, my primary objective would be to give an object lesson to the jack booted thugs: Don't tread on me.
"In war there is no substitute for victory."
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur
[This message has been edited by Spartacus (edited August 29, 1999).]
In the martial art Spartacus and I study, there is a concept known as tsutemi ("trading cuts"). Essentially, there are many times in conflict when winning- as Spartacus said, fulfilling the objective- means being willing to die. Life is dear, but freedom even more so.
I agree wholeheartedly with Dennis that voting for a change is vital. Whether we can accomplish our aims through such means or not, believe that there are many things worse than death. Living a life I am ashamed to live would be one of them.
I agree wholeheartedly with Dennis that voting for a change is vital. Whether we can accomplish our aims through such means or not, believe that there are many things worse than death. Living a life I am ashamed to live would be one of them.
NexusLexus
Inactive
One day when guns are banned and Janet and the gang comes knocking on my door, I will resist.
If they take away our guns, who is going to keep the goverment in check? Send in the SWAT team and there will be another Waco.
BTW, I don't own a gun but will soon once I turn 21. I live in Cali
worst state to buy and own a gun.
If they take away our guns, who is going to keep the goverment in check? Send in the SWAT team and there will be another Waco.
BTW, I don't own a gun but will soon once I turn 21. I live in Cali
worst state to buy and own a gun.I think determining your objectives have to be of paramound importance. If survival is your ultimate objective, surrenduring in front of plenty of witnesses would probably be an excellent way to achieve that. People accidentally get shot sometimes, though- you could make a move mistaken for an agressive one as you sit up in bed, for instance...
As many have said in the previous thread, try to avoid attracting attention. This is good advice in general, but must also be weighed against the truth that acting as though our freedoms are already gone is a sure guarantee that they will soon be. Introduce a friend to the world of shooting today. Discuss ethics in a calm and reasoned manner with people around you. The tools are never the problem, and if we can generate a culture of self-reliance and individual responsibility for actions, perhaps we can retake the ground we have lost. We can, at least, try.
As many have said in the previous thread, try to avoid attracting attention. This is good advice in general, but must also be weighed against the truth that acting as though our freedoms are already gone is a sure guarantee that they will soon be. Introduce a friend to the world of shooting today. Discuss ethics in a calm and reasoned manner with people around you. The tools are never the problem, and if we can generate a culture of self-reliance and individual responsibility for actions, perhaps we can retake the ground we have lost. We can, at least, try.
Gizmo99 said
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that your best bet (if surrender is not your choice) is to punch a hole or three in their perimeter and run like a striped a__ ape. [/quote]
I think you're partly right. The better tactic would be to punch a hole or three in their perimeter then catch a cab to Vegas
bkm
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Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think that your best bet (if surrender is not your choice) is to punch a hole or three in their perimeter and run like a striped a__ ape. [/quote]
I think you're partly right. The better tactic would be to punch a hole or three in their perimeter then catch a cab to Vegas
bkm
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Anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting twice...
Stopdropnroll
New member
well I guess I have sat back long enough...
Of all the interesting and purposeful posts I have seens on here...this is not one of them!
No matter how many statements you make that you dont support armed confrontations with the PD and that this is not aimed towards our boys in blue...the fact remains that this thread by any other name could also be called "how to kill a cop"
I believe in our right to free speech and agree have the right to discuss whatever subject want but,...
The fact reamins that our police officers are great people, putting their asses on the line every day,.... taking risks you would not dare to think of to shut down dope houses, stop gang violence in our streets or what ever other heap of **** you hand them....every day 24/7.
you can look at situations like Ruby Ridge or Waco and use this in some twisted manner to continue to try to convince your self that these folks are the "real enemy" , but when your little fantasy is over and you shut down your computer and crawl into bed...remember that after a big night of tough talk about how you would stop a armed force, they are out doing it night after night after night...
Even if I stand alone, I will stand up and say I support my Officers and Deputies. Thanks you for what you do and what you risk every day.
"how do you stop a SWAT team?...be a law abiding citizen!"
SDnR!
Of all the interesting and purposeful posts I have seens on here...this is not one of them!
No matter how many statements you make that you dont support armed confrontations with the PD and that this is not aimed towards our boys in blue...the fact remains that this thread by any other name could also be called "how to kill a cop"
I believe in our right to free speech and agree have the right to discuss whatever subject want but,...
The fact reamins that our police officers are great people, putting their asses on the line every day,.... taking risks you would not dare to think of to shut down dope houses, stop gang violence in our streets or what ever other heap of **** you hand them....every day 24/7.
you can look at situations like Ruby Ridge or Waco and use this in some twisted manner to continue to try to convince your self that these folks are the "real enemy" , but when your little fantasy is over and you shut down your computer and crawl into bed...remember that after a big night of tough talk about how you would stop a armed force, they are out doing it night after night after night...
Even if I stand alone, I will stand up and say I support my Officers and Deputies. Thanks you for what you do and what you risk every day.
"how do you stop a SWAT team?...be a law abiding citizen!"
SDnR!
Dennis Olson
New member
StopDropnRoll:
Follow this link...
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23817
Now, what were you saying...?
Follow this link...
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23817
Now, what were you saying...?
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
StopDropandRoll: I am copying my post on the aforementioned thread here: I would like to hear the professionals defend this one if the facts are indeed as reported.
Anyone want to take bets that nothing is done to the killer? Or the idiot that authorized the raid on the basis of that "intelligence."
But, of course, they have the need to use tactics such as this for their personal safety and to safeguard evidence. If the odd innocent party is killed now and then, well, SORRY ABOUT THAT.
A man was killed in Kansas City in his home a few weeks ago. His crime-he grabbed a rifle in his bedroom at 2am when jackbooted thugs crashed in. It was a justifiable killing by the police though- there were six marijuana cigarette butts found in the dwelling. Clearly justifiable.
Or in Houston several months ago when plainsclothes police kicked in a man's door and killed him when he tried to defend himself. No drugs found, no prior record. Not one contraband item found. I am so proud of these policemen- aren't you?
Or the dynamic entry in Aiken SC based on the unsupported testimony of a fourteen year old runaway herself facing crimnal charges. No one was killed here. Just one teenager with permanent hearing damage from a flash bang grenade. The cops' total haul-a gallon of koolaid and a federal judgement of 2/3 of a million dollars. To be paid by the taxpayers of course.
Of course, anyone who supports the police should support these tactics. After all, the body count of the innocent-while constantly growing-is only a small percentage of the total...
Many years ago, I was sitting in a local diner listening to three policeman enthuse over the Supreme Court's ruling giving the ok to no knock searches. Two were friends and one was a cousin. I asked them about the crystal clear wording of the Fourth and Fifthe Amendments. They didn't know the wording. I then told them my stance which has remained unchanged since: I will cooperate with any search warrant or police order. Break in and remember this: The Supreme Court ain't coming in ahead of you. I will fight. Since my local police know 1)that I will cooperate with a search warrant or police order and 2) I will resist dynamic entry with lethal force-exactly what does it mean if they use dynamic entry against me? It means they have decided to kill me.
Anyone want to take bets that nothing is done to the killer? Or the idiot that authorized the raid on the basis of that "intelligence."
But, of course, they have the need to use tactics such as this for their personal safety and to safeguard evidence. If the odd innocent party is killed now and then, well, SORRY ABOUT THAT.
A man was killed in Kansas City in his home a few weeks ago. His crime-he grabbed a rifle in his bedroom at 2am when jackbooted thugs crashed in. It was a justifiable killing by the police though- there were six marijuana cigarette butts found in the dwelling. Clearly justifiable.
Or in Houston several months ago when plainsclothes police kicked in a man's door and killed him when he tried to defend himself. No drugs found, no prior record. Not one contraband item found. I am so proud of these policemen- aren't you?
Or the dynamic entry in Aiken SC based on the unsupported testimony of a fourteen year old runaway herself facing crimnal charges. No one was killed here. Just one teenager with permanent hearing damage from a flash bang grenade. The cops' total haul-a gallon of koolaid and a federal judgement of 2/3 of a million dollars. To be paid by the taxpayers of course.
Of course, anyone who supports the police should support these tactics. After all, the body count of the innocent-while constantly growing-is only a small percentage of the total...
Many years ago, I was sitting in a local diner listening to three policeman enthuse over the Supreme Court's ruling giving the ok to no knock searches. Two were friends and one was a cousin. I asked them about the crystal clear wording of the Fourth and Fifthe Amendments. They didn't know the wording. I then told them my stance which has remained unchanged since: I will cooperate with any search warrant or police order. Break in and remember this: The Supreme Court ain't coming in ahead of you. I will fight. Since my local police know 1)that I will cooperate with a search warrant or police order and 2) I will resist dynamic entry with lethal force-exactly what does it mean if they use dynamic entry against me? It means they have decided to kill me.
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Stopdropnroll said -
"fact remains that this thread by any other name could also be called "how to kill a cop""
Hate to disagree, but no - there are some great techniques for tying up an assulting force and inflicting casualties, but no one here has specificly pointed them out. Nor, IMHO, should they.
This thread seems to be evolving into a philosophical discussion on armed resistance to an illegal raid.
Most of us here are in fact lawful citizens and, due to our mindset, do look at contingentcies. There is a great deal of no-knock searches that do not end in innocents being killed. But there are an outrageous number that are irresponsible. I think the question comes down to what do you do?
What do you do now, what will you do if you or yours gets targeted in the future, what will you do if due process goes out the window?
As with any tactical question, mission, enemy, troops (available), time and terrain will drive your plans.
Giz
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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
"fact remains that this thread by any other name could also be called "how to kill a cop""
Hate to disagree, but no - there are some great techniques for tying up an assulting force and inflicting casualties, but no one here has specificly pointed them out. Nor, IMHO, should they.
This thread seems to be evolving into a philosophical discussion on armed resistance to an illegal raid.
Most of us here are in fact lawful citizens and, due to our mindset, do look at contingentcies. There is a great deal of no-knock searches that do not end in innocents being killed. But there are an outrageous number that are irresponsible. I think the question comes down to what do you do?
What do you do now, what will you do if you or yours gets targeted in the future, what will you do if due process goes out the window?
As with any tactical question, mission, enemy, troops (available), time and terrain will drive your plans.
Giz
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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"
Unless you are also trained in SWAT tactics and know their movement you don't stand much of a chance if you decide to fight them. SWAT teams use the same entry tactics as the NAVY SEALS, and modify them slightly to incorporate there departmental rules. Both of my advisors at the sherriffs dept. are SWAT members, they have trained me in basic tactics and I still am defeated everytime. Once just for fun everyone decide to play Q-zar (lazer tag), the setting is a dark low light labernith. I finaly shot one after many feeble attempts, the only reason was because he was aquring another target. The other SWAT member I tried my best, I stalked him, tried to ambush and every time I got shot. My point is don't fight unless you are well trained and well armed.
The best defense that I can offer is don't be in the building when they make the initial entry. Get out while you can, even then you must break through the perimenter because there will be at least 2 or more snipers watching you. Your best bet is to surrender and pay the consequences of your crime (SWAT wouldn't be at your house for any other reason unless they have a arrest warrent or search warrent).
The best defense that I can offer is don't be in the building when they make the initial entry. Get out while you can, even then you must break through the perimenter because there will be at least 2 or more snipers watching you. Your best bet is to surrender and pay the consequences of your crime (SWAT wouldn't be at your house for any other reason unless they have a arrest warrent or search warrent).
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Yep, just like they weren't at the guy's house in KC (killed him-no felony), or Houston (killed him-no anything), the elderly man in California days ago (killed him and stole his life savings-nothing found) or the kids in Aiken, SC (they found koolaid and permanently damaged a girl's hearing). Yeah, just a swell bunch of guys who wouldn't dream of coming in on someone who was not a deadly criminal and never make a mistake. Got any other fairytales?
Stopndrop,
I heard a caller on the Rush Limbaugh program Tuesday who chilled me to my very soul. It was a Fed-type LE guy named Jeff from the DC area who was supportive of almost all the techniques and methods used in Waco.
You know, dynamic entry... safety of the LEOs, element of surprise, assuring evidence remains, etc. To Jeff's mind everything was justified because THEY WERE ENFORCING THE *LAW*.
I don't think it has ever entered Jeff's mind that the Davidians were licensed by the Federal Government as gun dealers (which is just as honest a living as running a grocery store or horse-trading)!
And that the only difference between becoming felons in possession of full-auto weapons and and FFL class three dealers is a failure to pay the tax to the government on an annual basis for your right to own autos.
For that $500 annual tax, 80 people were fried?
Stockpiling guns is not wrong in any way, nor is owning autos, nor is religious diversity wrong. We have those rights and obligations as Americans.
But when people like Jeff are given positions of authority, firepower, and funding as LEs without any attendant due thought process into whatever *law* they are enforcing, lives becomes forfeit.
If a cattlecar full of ATF agents shows up at your house, what are you going to do?
I heard a caller on the Rush Limbaugh program Tuesday who chilled me to my very soul. It was a Fed-type LE guy named Jeff from the DC area who was supportive of almost all the techniques and methods used in Waco.
You know, dynamic entry... safety of the LEOs, element of surprise, assuring evidence remains, etc. To Jeff's mind everything was justified because THEY WERE ENFORCING THE *LAW*.
I don't think it has ever entered Jeff's mind that the Davidians were licensed by the Federal Government as gun dealers (which is just as honest a living as running a grocery store or horse-trading)!
And that the only difference between becoming felons in possession of full-auto weapons and and FFL class three dealers is a failure to pay the tax to the government on an annual basis for your right to own autos.
For that $500 annual tax, 80 people were fried?
Stockpiling guns is not wrong in any way, nor is owning autos, nor is religious diversity wrong. We have those rights and obligations as Americans.
But when people like Jeff are given positions of authority, firepower, and funding as LEs without any attendant due thought process into whatever *law* they are enforcing, lives becomes forfeit.
If a cattlecar full of ATF agents shows up at your house, what are you going to do?
I agree with Stopdropnroll
these cases you hear about are few and facts of life most cops would agree that these guys who crashed these houses and did harm by mistake or little reason should be dealt with severley possibly kicked off the force and class action law suits filed by the victims or family of the victims.
If a crash unit hits your home the best thing for you to do is hit the deck put your hands over your head and once things are calm find out what the hell is going on.
Cops are people to they make mistakes just like you and I we all pay for our mistakes one way or the other wether it be losing your job over it or getting the pants sued off of you or both we each pay the price.
Most cops would aggree with this and should not be labeled as those bad apples or those who made a mistake it's like saying that all gun owners are violent foaming at the mouth lunatics.
The socond you start talking about killing cops you cross that line of A responsiable gun owner.
We take cops much to for granted when we need them that;s the first thing we do is grab the phone and the rest of the time we wish they wern't around mainly while speeding to work.
It's not easy bieng a cop and you guys out of anybody should not be disrepecting what they do even if does'nt go your way all the time.
just my .02
these cases you hear about are few and facts of life most cops would agree that these guys who crashed these houses and did harm by mistake or little reason should be dealt with severley possibly kicked off the force and class action law suits filed by the victims or family of the victims.
If a crash unit hits your home the best thing for you to do is hit the deck put your hands over your head and once things are calm find out what the hell is going on.
Cops are people to they make mistakes just like you and I we all pay for our mistakes one way or the other wether it be losing your job over it or getting the pants sued off of you or both we each pay the price.
Most cops would aggree with this and should not be labeled as those bad apples or those who made a mistake it's like saying that all gun owners are violent foaming at the mouth lunatics.
The socond you start talking about killing cops you cross that line of A responsiable gun owner.
We take cops much to for granted when we need them that;s the first thing we do is grab the phone and the rest of the time we wish they wern't around mainly while speeding to work.
It's not easy bieng a cop and you guys out of anybody should not be disrepecting what they do even if does'nt go your way all the time.
just my .02
I too agree with SDnR and GT Nick. What is alarming to me is the amount of anti government, anti LE sentiment that gets tossed around here. You want to blame your problems on someone, blame yourselves. Go out and vote instead of sitting around bitching on the forums. Go to city council meetings and voice your concerns there. Try and do some good instead of postulating how you are going to try and waste some SWAT guy who comes to your door. WAKE UP! For those of you who think you can do it listen up. SWAT teams are training constantly in firearms, tactics, and physical fitness. They have automatic weapons, body armor, and resources you only dream of. Next time you sit at your computer sipping a cold one having delusions about being Billy Jack, think about that.
(continued)
There is something called suicide by cop. For those of you who are not familiar with this term I will explain. Some @$$hole who wants to end his life but has not the courage to do it goads the cops into shooting him. Have any of you heard of Thinning the Herd? These are people who get killed or kill themselves off by doing incredible stupid things. My point is this. If you are stupid enough to go for a weapon while a SWAT team is bearing down on you, prepare to die. If you are stupid enough to reach for a weapon while SWAT has a bead on you, prepare to die. Regardless of what circumstances brought them there, keep your hands visible, and do what they tell you, or you will get jacked. Yes SWAT unfortunately makes mistakes. There is no need for any of you to make a fatal mistake. And BTW criminals usually don't enter your house shouting "Police, search warrant!" in teams of 6 or more, dressed in black gear carrying MP 5s or AR 15s. No need to reply on how you think cops are criminals.
[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited September 02, 1999).]
There is something called suicide by cop. For those of you who are not familiar with this term I will explain. Some @$$hole who wants to end his life but has not the courage to do it goads the cops into shooting him. Have any of you heard of Thinning the Herd? These are people who get killed or kill themselves off by doing incredible stupid things. My point is this. If you are stupid enough to go for a weapon while a SWAT team is bearing down on you, prepare to die. If you are stupid enough to reach for a weapon while SWAT has a bead on you, prepare to die. Regardless of what circumstances brought them there, keep your hands visible, and do what they tell you, or you will get jacked. Yes SWAT unfortunately makes mistakes. There is no need for any of you to make a fatal mistake. And BTW criminals usually don't enter your house shouting "Police, search warrant!" in teams of 6 or more, dressed in black gear carrying MP 5s or AR 15s. No need to reply on how you think cops are criminals.
[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited September 02, 1999).]
While Stopdropnroll may be right from his point of view. Where are the peoples rights. If I am in my home with my family eating a meal, or sleeping, I should have the right to feel safe. But that has gone to the wayside. Even if it was a mistake when the swat team broke in at 11pm and waisted a 68 year old man who was asleep in his bed. I have read stories in the papers all across the country, and knew a family in St Peters Mo. Who was eating supper when a swat team broke in and shot their son, a 14 year old. with no justification.
Should we just put up our hands and say thank you sir may I have another, and have them shoot us just because the wear a blue uniform and wear a badge. I think this post is "how do we survive in a day where the Police are in control, and we have no rights"
Just like in writing tickets. The judges assume the policemen are correct, and unless you can prove you are innocent, you're screwed. Where is the america we used to live in???????
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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best
Should we just put up our hands and say thank you sir may I have another, and have them shoot us just because the wear a blue uniform and wear a badge. I think this post is "how do we survive in a day where the Police are in control, and we have no rights"
Just like in writing tickets. The judges assume the policemen are correct, and unless you can prove you are innocent, you're screwed. Where is the america we used to live in???????
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10MM Magnum.... tried the rest, now I got the best