Beating bad guy to the draw

I have to agree with Mikeyboy and Dwight55 here. Drawing while having a gun pointed at you is very risky. You can't assume that the bad guy does not know how to shoot. This would probably be a up close and personal type of confrontation, maybe even contact distance. It is pretty hard to miss from that close. I say toss the wallet and draw if the bad guy gets distracted. If I draw on him, he better drop the weapon or run away.
 
Doug, its the choice of weapon and the advantage the BG has. At close range with a shotgun pointing at you and your pistol in its holster, you will certainly die (and possibly the loved one standing next to you) if you draw, unless you distract him somehow. If the shotgun is not pointing at me,(guy says give me your wallet and the shotgun is in his jacket pointing down) I shoot the guy. If the guy somehow sneaks up behind and is able to get a pistol barrel pressed to the side of my head, drawing may be suicide. A distracting wallet toss, the barrel come off my head and I shoot the guy.The guy goes for the wallet and runs away with his back to me the whole time I can't shoot him or I will suffer the fate of Bernie Getz. Maybe if I'm alone and as the guy is running away, I might draw on the guy and tell him to drop the gun. If he keeps running I can't do anything other than call the cops. If he drops the gun now I got to try to get in touch with the cops while holding a gun on the guy. If he turns to take a shot, now I'm at an advantage, and I shoot him. If there are people around, especially my family, I take a defensive position and I let the guy go, call 911 and hope the police can catch him. I am not going to risk my family's lives getting into a gun battle over the contents of my wallet.
 
Here's a scenario:

:D

How many forum posters does it take to change a light bulb?

1 to change the light bulb and to post that the light bulb has been changed

14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently

7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs

27 grammar Nazis to point out spelling/grammar errors

53 to flame the spell checkers

41 to correct spelling/grammar flames

6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb"

6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive

2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp"

27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs

14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's

12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy

4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ

44 to ask what is a "FAQ"

4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?"

143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs"

1 forum lurker to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again…
 
Little old ladies aren't nearly as much trouble to intimidate and rob as NFL football players, for example.
Click to expand...

The Eagles lost a defensive end for half a season , because he was shot when someone tried to steal his car in a carjacking. Apparently this has happened before with the Chargers. Nice cars, and bad guys who want them, if your not armed no matter how big you are you cannot stop a bullet.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2194391

http://www.fox23.com/sports/nfl/story.aspx?content_id=37D03B53-2BC2-43CC-8624-80B30FE8115C
 
You are not going to fare too well in a gunfight against someone that knows what they are doing if you try to draw when someone already has their weapon pointed at you.

You can say whatever you want, but he's going to shoot you if he sees any kind of weapon (assuming he's not a tool). If he's distracted, you shoot from inside clothing, etc. you may have a chance.

I don't know what the odds of winning are against a shotgun (with I assume buck shot) at contact range, but it can't be good. I am part of the never give up mindset, but you have to be rational about the scenario. If he's already got the drop on you and he know's what he's doing-your screwed.
 
There's no way you can win against someone who's drawn on you that close. I would hope my situational awareness would keep this from happening to me. Hopefully I could get a chance to use my gun if I was forcibly kidnapped but I don't think it will help me in this senario. Tossing the wallet is a good idea but I don't think it will buy you the time you need and even if it does if you shoot the attacker and are sucessful you had better pick your wallet up and put it back in your pocket. Once the cops show up and see BG lying on the ground with wallet in hand it will look awfully suspicious like you shot a fleeing suspect.
 
nobody is immune to becoming a victim, but you can be prepared and make yourself less vulnerable. also, not everyone in baggy pants and a backwards hat is a criminal, when i lived in a rough neighborhood i didnt walk around with a cabelas hat on, rusty wallace t-shirt and hiking boots. I dressed more like the people i lived near. I didnt stand out, nor did i feel like a poser. Trying to speculate what you are going to do when you get robbed is pointless. Just keep your cool and remember its better to be sucking air, than to be Mel Gibson and get wrecked.
 
Too big a question...

This is yet another example of a question that involves entirely too many variables. What do you do if you get held up? There's no right answer for that! The appropriate course of action to take in response to a hold-up depends on a MILLION different variables, depending on where you are, what time it is, how far away the guy is, whether and what kind of weapon he has, how you feel about it, how HE feels about it... We can go on forever with this.

If a guy holds you up, and all he wants is your wallet, then you should give it to him. If a guy holds you up and he means to do you bodily harm, then you should resist that harm with the last gasp of your dying breath! The problem is, how do you know whether he means to do you harm, or whether he just wants your wallet? The answer is: It depends upon all of the circumstances of the particular instance. Half the time, you will have no idea whether you need to hand it over or fight back. You just have to feel out the situation and make a decision. That's why some people refer to conceal-carry as a "responsibility," because it sometimes involves making tough decisions.

I can tell you that FBI statistics indicate that your chances of surviving an armed robbery decrease SIGNIFICANTLY if the assailant manages to relocate you. If the guy wants to move you to a more isolated place, it's because he wants to do something that he is afraid will draw a crowd. If this happens. BEAT HIM TO DEATH WITH ANYTHING YOU CAN FIND. Absorb gunshots. Absorb knife wounds. Just fight. Hopefully, the ambulance will get there in time and you can get patched up later. Because, if you go with him, you're going to die anyway.

That's about all the advice I can give. Gotta go study now...
 
And with all that said...

Its still a good idea to practice drawing from concealment and getting that first shot off quickly and accurately. If having a gun is the first rule, being able to get it in play quickly is probably the second. Not that you're going to draw on a drawn gun, or even play quickdraw. Just that, if you need a gun, you probably need it quickly, rather than slowly.
 
If he's holding a shotgun...

...his advantages are twofold. 1: he's holding the ultimate fight-stopper in his hands. 2: he's HOLDING the ultimate fight stopper IN HIS HANDS. (this advice is for any gun)
His only disadvantage is that he doesn't think you're going to kill him today.
As for condition white, could you sneak up on people in a parking structure with a shotgun? If you could, than someone else can. Could you do it to you? I could get past my own level of alertness, so I know someone else can.
Now, your safest bet is to let him win. Your smartest bet is to let him win. He gets the goods, and you lose.
Now, as history has shown, he might just want more, like your daughter or wife/girlfriend. You just gave him your wallet, now the pattern of giving him stuff is in place. What's next? Start saying no now?
If you don't want to give him ANYTHING, you have to be better than him. Are you? Could you (morality/psuchology aside) get a man to give you whatever you wanted if you had a shotgun in your hands? Could you do it if he was armed, but not holding? If you could, then you have to assume that he can.
The only answer is YOU AND WHOEVER YOU ARE WITH MUST BE ARMED.
He's not taking both of you alive.
Let him go? He'll enentually hold up others, and maybe move up to murder/kidnapping. You can stop him, you must stop him. If not, oh well, but if you have the means and opportunity, and don't stop him, and his next victim is somebody's little girl, how will you feel? A lot worse than if you just shot him and ended his life of crime.
It isn't the money in your wallet. What if you had $500k on you? Would you shoot him then? That's what it will cost for him to spend the next ten years in prison. Minimum. That's your money, too. If you want to make it financial, fine. Half a mil to let him walk, IF the cops find him. If not, he'll just keep doing it.
 
Why not just pull your gun?

Doug, I asked you this before and you never answered. Have you ever done any significant FOF training? That might give you a view of your options. Sometimes compliance works and sometimes it doesn't.

Let's say - you plug him - under stress - and guess what, you don't kill him?

That won't happen to you, I assume all TFL members are superheroes of shooting. So then he shoots you.

The situation, as mentioned above, is too complex for one answer. However, incredibly naive commando suggestions are rather ridiculous.

As far as the ultimate protection being God - when was the last time God directly intervened in a mugging? YOU are you own ultimate protection.
 
Beating bad guy to the draw....when do you know when to pull your gun before it is too late?
Click to expand...
This is not a complex problem...and you won't need thousands of dollars of specialized 'tactical' training/quickdraw to figure it out.

Pay attention and draw either before the confrontation or when you know you are about to be shot/attacked.
.
 
I think we ignored one very important aspect of this thread. If you feel something is going to go down (but you aren't sure), when do you draw your weapon? Do you risk brandishing by drawing before a weapon is shown or do you wait to be drawn upon?

Lets assume you have good situational awareness and notice that there is some scruffy guy that seems to be walking in the same direction as you or is approaching you (in some area where he has every right to be). I'm not sure how many of you carry in a jacket pocket where you can have your hand on the gun, but it Miami, it is pretty darned hot to wear a jacket all the time. Even if the scruffy person approaches you and asks you for money, I don't believe that we have a right to draw on him.

I feel that this is where non-lethal weapons come into play. If you mace someone by accident, there is no permenant damage done. It still might be considered assault, but not with a deadly weapon. Besides, it might be hard for the person to identify you with his eyes tearing up like crazy. You can walk around with pepper spray in your hand (should be weak hand in case you need to draw your gun) discreetly and be ready to spray anyone that has bad intentions. I know that pepper spray verus a gun is always a bad situation, but we can't always walk around with our guns in our hands. What do you guys think?
 
Gee, two whole pages and no one said "I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by six", or however else they mangle it. The most important question here is, why does anyone even answer a Doug.38PR thread?? That is the 64 thousand dollar question. :D
 
I changed a light bulb once...

I love the light bulb post... but of course the real value of all the discussion is simply that it makes people think. There are very few absolutely right or absolutely wrong answers.

I was robbed at gunpoint once. I was unarmed, with a woman and was uncertain what the BG really wanted. He repeated that he had nothing to lose by blowing us away... I ended up carrying on quite a conversation with him... I actually counted my money out to him! When he insisted on her handbap, I had to explain why she did not want to simply give him her handbag (she was hysterical)... attempting to find a solution to the problem... What I was really doing was slowing things down, getting him "off the jazz" and also hoping time would bring help. (It didn't.)

Interesting that he was subsequently caught after "pistol-whipping" another couple, same MO. I'll never know for sure if my handling prevented us from harm... and I honestly don't know what I'd do if it happened again. Maybe because it never will happen again, not exactly the same way.

Very often when I tell the story people think I was nuts.

Maybe, I don't know. But I do know that it is not nuts to consider all angles and all possibilities BEFORE you find yourself in a sticky situation. The problem with learning by experience is you learn the lesson after you need it.
 
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