Beating bad guy to the draw

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Doug.38PR

Moderator
No this is not a thread about standing in the middle of the street waiting for a gunfighter to go for his gun and before you can blink you whip your gun out twice as fast and blow him down.
What I am talking about, kind of along those lines, is, when do you know when to pull your gun before it is too late?
I got the follwing edited e mail the other day about a guy who was held up while christmas shopping by someone:

A relative of a lifelong friend was robbed at gunpoint in an upscale mall last night.

"Last night _______ and a friend were robbed by a masked man who put them on the ground and held a shot gun to ______ head while yelling that he was going to kill him. He got away with just wallets - plastic and cash. They were at __________ (nice shopping area in __________) The police were getting calls from all over town while taking their report. Just a reminder to all that it can happen to you - don't let down your guard while shopping and running errands during Christmas shopping.
We pray the blood of Jesus over each one of you every day and your protection by holy angels. We praise God for His protection last night over ________! "

So, WHEN SHOPPING THIS YEAR:

1. Wear pants that have pockets.
2. Put your (minimal amount) cash, your driver's license and the credit card you intend to use in a front pocket
3. Take an empty wallet / purse with you (load old credit cards and a few dollar bills in it)
4. If accosted, throw the wallet / purse away from you.
5. Run screaming to the nearest crowd.

jeb
PS Always have your credit card phone numbers to call in the event of losing your wallet or purse
Click to expand...

What do you all think about the advice given here. I replied to the person who sent it to me 6. get a CHL and carry a pistol.
In addition to that, I would be aware of my surroundings, don't go into enclosed areas where you can be trapped (like between cars and especially SUVs in the parking lot at night). Seems if you have time to reach for your wallet and throw it away from you, then you have time to reach for your pistol and drill the punk. If you just run to the nearest crowd you can easily have your back seeded with buckshot or bullet.
A friend of mine who objects to guns says if you are robbed then you have a better chance of trying to get away than using your gun and the gun might get you killed because the bad guy already has his gun out.
Of course it's easy for me to say what I would or wouldn't do when I wasn't there. And there is only so much you can do, you personally can't 100% ensure that you won't get attacked and only God is your ultimate protection.

Also, hypothetically speaking, (for you experienced LEOS out there) what usually happens to initiate this attack, does the attacker spring from a car, from the shadows, or what.

I would expect these criminals to be experts and smart at what they do.

a cop once told us that most are in fact not too bright at all.

Looking at some of these convenient store robberies on shown on comedy cameras (idot putting a bag over his head without eyeholes and stumbling around the store for instance) I can believe that

Do we (good guys) really have that much advantage over them?

If you do see a suspicious man (baggy pants, ear ring, and other official gang uniform stuff) walking near your or looking at you funny or approaching you and it looks as though he maybe reaching for a weapon or about to whip a shot gun out from behind a trench coat. You don't know if it is a gun or if he is just fooling around with his friends (if they are around) or if he is just trying to look tough or is reaching for hair spray to keep his spiked hair messed up looking. What do you do? If you pull your gun first, then you have just brandished your gun and are in trouble. But if he turns out to be pulling a gun then he is one step ahead of you in pulling it.

Thoughts, experiences, training?
 
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Slowly pulling out your wallet isnt a bad way to distract the person and then draw your gun. It is hard to go too theoretical here though.
 
To me, it sounds like a view of a person who has allowed himself to become a victim and is sharing his view on the best way to become a victim.
Lastly, ending his views with running and screaming into a crowd.
I will not follow his tactical views.
 
Hmmm

I don't think you want to give up your purse or wallet. The idea that "give it to them and they'll go away" seems to be contradicted by the widespread assaults and murders of, for example, convenience store clerks who comply...and die.

I am unclear as to how he got to the point of being able to "put them on the ground". Most bad guys don't just trot around mall parking lots with shotguns! :eek: How in the world did this actually occur? And if we can get the details, we can then perhaps figure how to not let ourselves get into that spot.

Springmom
 
Q: How does a "masked man" carrrying a SHOTGUN sneak up on you in a mall parking lot (of all places)?

A: Condition WHITE. (nuff said)
 
Indeed situational awareness goes a long way, in addition the BGs (at least in a gang attack) will usually confront you and "size you up" before any robbery is attemted. Try to present yourself as someone who they do not want to mess with.
 
Agree; prevention by awareness. Victims are often choosen according to awareness level.

I'd need to be near a panic level to draw on a raised gun. If I could shoot though a jacket I would.
 
Just a thought

If you look like a victim you will probably become one. Your friend needs to pay attention to what is going on around him sounds like he had his head up his rectum. BG's are looking for victims not opponents so if you look like a good opponent then chances are you wont get bothered. Bg's don't want to get hurt any more then you do. I just read an article that interviewed 1000 BG's about their use of a gun I believe it stated that 82% said they practiced with their weapon at least twice a month 12% about once a month the rest every other month. And your right some BG's aren't to smart but some are very smart and the smart one play off your body language. But it's just my 2 cents worth so take it at that. Be Safe Out There. Kurt
 
some of you may have already heard me tout this, so please bear with me:rolleyes:
walk down the street with your gun already in your hand!
get a jacket with large hand pockets, large enough to hide your gun-in-hand!
a small revolver with hammer shroud would work best. but even a small auto will get you the first shot, and the first shot is the most important.:D

this is an old cop technique, works very well, try it!;)
 
If a guy is pointing a real loaded shotgun no matter how fast you are, you are not going to be able to draw quick enough unless the guy is distracted. Craigtx has a good point, he will never see it coming if you shot from inside your pocket, however you are less likely to get a good head shot that way. If the BG has got me in a no win situation and all he want is my wallet, he can have it. I would simply say "take it" and toss it, walking away in the other direction, while pulling my weapon, all the time keeping an eye on him. If the bad guy goes after the wallet and runs away, the credit cards will be canceled and I would be out maybe $200 to $300 max. If he come back after retrieving the wallet or he doesn't go after the wallet he wants something more. Perhaps he wants my keys (which means he will have my truck, with the owner card with my address and the keys to the house...not good), or perhaps its a kidnapping where he wants me to drive around and clean out my ATM, or maybe something even worse. With the distraction of tossing my wallet I have the seconds I need to pull my CW unseen. Now I will have better odds shooting the guy before he shoots me.
 
Doug, . . . I would like to think I would have enough good sense to just pull out the wallet and toss it away from me (most likely to my left) while I am putting distance and objects between him and me.

Mikeyboy has what I think is the right idea, . . .

I would reserve, however, the opportunity to draw my .45 if the bg got too interested in his prize. He would then find himself looking down the barrel of 9 rounds of 230 grain lead with his name on each round.

If I got the drop on him, . . . I would try to hold him until LEO's come, . . . but if he decides to just flat out run away, . . . so be it. I'll just be a good witness when the boys in blue get there.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Doug.38PR asked, "if you have your gun out, why not just plug him?"

1. I mostly never have over 350 bucks on me at any time

2. His/her life is worth more to me than 20 times that amount, . . . or more

3. I probably wouldn't have my weapon unless he got real stupid, . . . a trick I will do my best not to emulate for them.

4. If he/she makes a play for the shotgun, . . . or makes further threats against my life, . . . well, . . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
 
right, but this whole incident is a threat against your life, he started it producing a deadly weapon against you with intent to kill if he didn't get what didn't belong to him...and quite possibly even kill you if you did. From the moment he confronted you with armed robbery he has forfited his right to life by threatening yours or mine. Legitimate self defense. To hesitate is to put yourself in even more danger and give him a better chance. I think they used to execute people for armed robbery...and some states may still do.
 
I agree with Dwight55 and Mikeyboy.
I would drop my wallet and draw my gun.
I would not shoot to kill unless I had to.
I would try to stop him and if I did I would probably take his gun and our money. :D
 
Why not kill him as soon as you get the drop?

We live in a different legal time now.

I would suggest holding the perp until the fuzz arrives. If he makes a run for it, away from you, then your life is no longer in danger. If you still decide to take a well placed, aimed 40-50 yard shot that this point at a moving target to get your wallet back... just know that you can only use lethal force when you life is threatened and you have no more options. Nor can you use lethal force in defense of personal property alone.

If the perp makes a move for his weapon once you have yours drawn, then you life could come to a halt if you do not act very quickly. This time, said perp gets it.

Besides if you don't HAVE to shoot (perp is now fully under control) its probably best not to. Ifyou do, you will loose your pistol to the state as evidence and will have to go to court. Then what will the jury think? When you tell the story of the 40-50 yd lethal wallet retrival, you might just hang for it.

OR -
if you dont kill the perp, he can SUE you!

This is not to say don't shoot. But when you do, make sure to think first. And usually if you decide to pull the trigger, when no other options are there, do it with intent to kill.
 
you can only use lethal force when you life is threatened
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I understand. As absurd as our legal system is today, that's not really my point. In this whole senario, YOUR LIFE IS THREATENED. HE HIS ALREADY A THREAT. This is an ARMED robbery taking place. This man did approach you with a shotgun and is flashing it in a threatening manner. He did threaten to kill you with it and may very well kill you anyway.
My point is, if you have a chance to pull your gun while he is there robbing you WITH THE SHOTGUN then why risk your life by saying "Hold it right there, drop the gun!" This gives him a chance to panic and shoot at you. MY point is, why not just pull the gun and drop him if he is destracted at getting your wallet, or a car passing by, or hearing a crowd of people near by or whatever.
 
No this is not a thread about standing in the middle of the street waiting for a gunfighter to go for his gun and before you can blink you whip your gun out twice as fast and blow him down.
Click to expand...

No, but it is a thread about you standing in the middle of a parking lot when you see a potential threat and outdrawing him so as to blow him down if needed. The difference you describe is only that you don't have confirmation of the threat being actually threatening whereas with middle of the street gunfights, both sides know the fight is about to take place.

Also, hypothetically speaking, (for you experienced LEOS out there) what usually happens to initiate this attack, does the attacker spring from a car, from the shadows, or what.

I would expect these criminals to be experts and smart at what they do.

a cop once told us that most are in fact not too bright at all.
Click to expand...

Bad guys prefer to choose locations that give them some for of advantage over the intended prey and try to accomplish the crime by maintaining some form of danger advantage. So dark parking lots, secluded areas, public areas that afford quick get aways, etc. can all be used. The amount of situational advantage the perceive to need will depend (sometimes) on just how hard the target is perceived. Little old ladies aren't nearly as much trouble to intimidate and rob as NFL football players, for example.

There are two aspects to this thread that stand out and they are aspects that frequently come up and unfortunately they are misguided. These include criminal intelligence and the signifcance of the robbery.

A cop told you that most criminals are not too bright? If you ask, generally the reason they will give is that the the criminal was bright, then he would not be engaged in a risky business such a robbery. Don't get caught up in such a useless detail as it is not relevant. You will also hear or read experts as saying that criminals are cowards. They prey on the old, the weak (weaker), the sick, and the young. Or, they attack in greater numbers because they are to cowardly to commit the crimes by themselves. That is garbage.

What does it matter if the criminal is intelligent or not? It doesn't. Just because they are making a bad choice in living the life of crime does not mean they are not intelligent. And regardless of their IQ, more than likely they are much more experienced at committing crime than you are in being a crime victim. So they may not be bright, but they certainly may be better prepared to handle the situation than you are as a smart guy. Remember, they picked the situation and context for the event, not you.

As for being cowards, that is just stupid. Bad guys are cowards just like all the great carnivores are cowards. How often do you see National Geographic footage of a lion taking down an elephant? How many times does the lion pick the biggest male zebra in a herd and attempt to bring him down? In both cases, such attacks are rare and are usually only as desparation. Many carnivores such as lions and wolves will opt to use a pack to accomplish the task, using numbers to overwhelm the prey. Thes aspects have nothing to do with being cowardly. Bravery has nothing to do with it. What does pertain is risk avoidance.

Criminals, like bad guys, like to minimize risk. So they pick the easier targets and/or attack in numbers. When acting as a pack, individual risk to any one member is reduced as compared to working alone. A criminal would much rather snatch a wallet left on the seat of an unlocked car rather than trying to confront a person and take the wallet by force. The most significant aspect here is that the notion of risk avoidance is a natural behavior and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand and implement it.

When cops and experts start denoting criminals as being unintelligent and cowards, I think it is more to do with creating a perception of US v. THEM because we are all smart and brave, the polar opposites of the dumb and cowardly criminals. As noted, the titles are meaningless and even unrealistic.

What about the significance of the robbery? I am continually amazed by the stupidity of gun owners who worry about shooting and possibly killing an armed robber over what they believe is the salient issue, the cash or valuables the robber wants to steal. I find it so ironic that we call criminals unintelligent, and then you have people claiming they would not shoot a robber over the contents of their wallet that the robber is demanding at gunpoint or knifepoint.

If the guy is attempting to rob you, there will be an implied, stated, or display of threat or force, often significant force (knife, gun, club, numbers of robbers, etc.) with the stated or implied notion that failure to give up the cash will result in harm to you. At that moment, the money is no longer even a remotely salient issue. The concept of the money was
simply the reason that brought the bad guy(s) to you. It no longer holds any relevance because of the more significant issue of the threat of violence to you. I don't know about you, but I won't be fighting for the money. I will be neutralizing the threat to me and my
family. It isn NOT the cash and valuable that I will be protecting.

As a corollary concept to this, folks worried about taking a life over the contents of a wallet, say a few hundred of their own dollars and dealing with the consequences of knowing you killed a bad guy over something trivial. What a bunch of crap. Sure, you may have some issues to deal with via a therapist, but hesitation in protecting your own life because you worry about how you will feel about it is stupid...and you can read in several threads how folks would not take a life over protecting their wallets. As noted, it ain't about the wallets.

The question at hand isn't whether you are willing or capable of dealing with the
consquences of taking a human life over the matter of protecting your cash or even yourself. Since you didn't start the robbery, don't even consider the concept a being your choice. You didn't have a choice about being robbed. So the real question is not what you should
be asking yourself, but what the robber should be asking himself. Is he willing to lay his life on the line in order to dry to score some cash or valuables?

Obviously, the answer is yes because robbers know that victims can fight back, even if they don't expect the victims to fight back. The reality is there. So, we know the bad guy is willing to put his life on the line in order to rob you. That makes the person an exceptionally dangerous person as they have just put a value on their own life and it won't be a very
high $ figure. Since the confrontation will be over something like a wallet, not only are they risking their own lives to rob you, but they are risking your life as well. THESE ARE NOT YOUR CHOICES!

In regard to simply giving up the cash, what I especially appreciate is the fact that people like that believe that they are entering into some form of legally binding contract with the bad guy, a contract the bad guy intends to honor. In short, they believe that there is a negotiated outcome where giving up the money will result in the bad guy immediately breaking off the engagement with doing no physical harm harm to the former owner of the cash and that the former owner may go on his way, unmolested. Of course, it is not a legally binding contract and they have no eason to believe that a person who is robbing them will be honest with them on what will happen after they get the money, assuming it is even
discussed. People who rob you and threaten you with violence are not the kind of folks you want to trust.

Why people continue to believe that the bad guys will not do them harm after scoring the goods amazes me. There are many gun owners who believe this. You have to understand that the robber doesn't want just money from you, but to get away completely free. If the robber feels that you pose a threat to his future, such as by giving a detailed description to the cops, he may still decide to kill you just so that you can't go to the cops.

It ain't about the robbers being unintelligent, it ain't about the robbers being cowards, and it ain't about the money. It is about your life and the lives of your loved ones. Get over the touchy feely crap and come to grips with the fact that robberies that threaten injury or death are life threatening situations and the only relevant issue in life threatening situations is protecting life.
It ain't about the money!
 
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