Bears and the unchambered carry debate

That's true, it doesn't have anything to do with carrying a semiauto, either. It's about disabling and recklessly abandoning your only defensive weapon under the old oak tree and then putting all of your attention to a task of gutting out a critter, complete with wet and slick hands. Even with the darned thing in a holster on his person he still may have died.

For the ones who are advocating rifles or shotguns, saying that the guide should have been carrying a bear rifle, I can't find any laws that permit it. A hunter is allowed to carry a firearm during bow season, but it is a crime to use it against the game in any way at all. I don't know if a guide can carry a rifle during bow season, even if it's for purely for predator defensive purposes.
 
It is really a very different mindset. In short, you don't chamber a round until you have an immediate need to do so.
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everybody knows that you don't chamber the round until you want to scare the bad guy off, and then you have to work the action a few more times to show the guy that you really, really mean business before you shoot him.

Five rounds in a twelve gauge turned into four on the floor and a single round in the chamber. Assuming that the person hasn't short stroked it and wound up with an empty chamber.

I wonder how much, if any of this mindset is due to the rules of television?
 
Ya know, it's kinda funny how we humans can be: Knowing the right thing to do, but not doing it; or knowing what not to do, but doing it anyway. And then, those of us who happen to hear about another, or, as bystanders witness the mistakes of another, are quite ready to see and judge the error. And, it's well we should judge, not to condemn this person, as he has already paid the price of his error; but so that we might learn something that just might save ourselves from similar consequences. It's easy to judge that the man was a fool; but, maybe we are all capable of being that foolish, and more besides. If we learned a lesson here, can we apply it outside the box? I would never have done what this man did, and yet, maybe I do it all the time, but in a slightly different context. It's actually quite thought-provoking if you think about it for a while, maybe let it marinate overnight and revisit the situation in the morning....
 
In one of the hunting forums in which I participate, whenever there is a shooting where a hunter gets injured (shoots self, shoots another hunter) unintentionally, there are a variety of hunters who come out of the woodwork proclaiming that there is no reason to be walking around the woods with a chambered firearm. Apparently, these individuals feel that guns are too dangerous to be carried around with a round chambered, that just too much could go wrong and they are very vehement about it. They don't do it. They don't allow others who hunt with them to do it.

It is really a very different mindset. In short, you don't chamber a round until you have an immediate need to do so.

What is really scary is that Uptain did this with a gun that was there for defensive purposes.
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There's no reason to need to carry a hunting rifle with an empty chamber while actually hunting. It makes sense to unload if you're lowering it from a treestand ,or trying to navigate some particularly difficult terrain but other than that I don't see the need. Many people hunt in places where the sound of chambering a round is going to spook every animal in the area.

I hunt with weapons that have mechanical safeties that can be manipulated quietly and I use them in conjunction with keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction and my finger off the trigger. There has to be a failure of all three before something harmful happens.
 
Myself, I hunt with both bolt actions and a 742 semiauto. I suppose that a million people turkey hunt with pump shotguns.

All of my bolts have actions so loud that they can be heard by a sharply observant whitetail deer for probably 100 yards as it cycles, those high frequwncy tics travel forever. My 742, a semiautomatic, makes as much noise as dropping a box of wrenches. Maybe even 200 yards of open country couldn't muffle that noise if the wind was carrying it.

Now seriously, give me a break, guys, turkey hunting with an empty chamber?

One of the tropes of gun ownership and self defense is that if you should leave an empty chamber in your pump twelve gauge and rack it when you have an intruder in the house. The story goes that no human being can resist the urge to flee when that sound strikes the ear and occipital lobe. A homeowner will find nothing but a puddle and an empty room, and nobody would ever have to fire a shotgun in self defense.

Now seriously, if a shotgun can scare a hardened homebreaker into messing his pants and fleeing like a gazelle, I would guess that racking a shotgun could scare a wild turkey.

I find the idea of 'hunting' with an empty chamber to be ludicrous. Walking to a stand? Okay, that isn't technically hunting, but I guess the deer will be polite and wait for you to get into the stand. If you are out in the fields after quail, I can't imagine that it would be easy to rack a shotgun and then line up to fire.

If someone is engaged in a stalk, the stalk will be ruined.

if a guide took $3,000 from me for a hunt and threw a ridiculous restriction on me without having that clearly and emphatically laid out in his agreement, I would probably stop the hunt right there, go home, and file a suit for an insanely large amount. License fees, transportation, any preparation costs, and an enormous punitive damages cost for screwing me out of a hunt that I may not ever be able to replicate. I don't know how the guy could win it.

Why would I stop the hunt? I don't trust people. telling me to carry empty would probably lead to an argument. telling the guy I won't will probably make him angry. He'll probably lead me on a snipe hunt. I'd be wasting my time and thousands of dollars.
 
To me, having a quiet safety is a requirement for a hunting rifle and I suspect I'm not the only one here who thinks that way.
 
I wonder how much, if any of this mindset is due to the rules of television?
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Mark Uptain was an experienced guide and long time hunter as well as a lifelong resident of Wyoming.

It would seem awfully shortsighted to blame complacency on television. He wasn't a neophyte bubba-wannabe from the big city out to get his first deer. He probably had a better knowledge of bear threats than most folks.
 
To me, having a quiet safety is a requirement for a hunting rifle and I suspect I'm not the only one here who thinks that way.
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I was hunting a ridge down in missouri, in ozark forest, and a handful of does climbed the ridge to cross it. I had been looking down the other side of the ridge when they came up. I heard the sound, and had to quietly turn, and the darned things crept right up to me, about thirty feet, no more. Oh, yes, I thought. Buck might be with them. Took off the safety, the click alerted her, she looked me right in the eyes and I counted her lashes. Zip. The buck didn't bother making an appearance.

I don't think that there could ever be a silent one, you have to have some solid detent to retain it. Friction fitting would be dangerous. Even if you could do it, a silent safety could slip off without alerting you. A small, but obvious liability to the makers.
 
What should be noted is Fish and Game report that 50% of those who used fire arms suffered injury, bear spray, not nearly so much or bad.

Most people do not have a clue how fast bears can move. Cocked, unlocked, loaded and aimed you might get one shot off (depends on how the nerves are doing if it hits)

I do like the one report, a gun is the only lethal response. Hmm, and the goal here is? Kill something or survive to have a good day latter, maybe?

And you do not know even if you are loaded and aimed if you will kill it.

I have seen some evidence that massive trauma from a higher cap magazine be it pistol or semi auto may be effective (so fare 3 out of 3 I know of) - too small a sampling and only one was supposedly threatened though I am skeptical of that.

What we can say, sadly for the mans family, situational awareness was not in play, all parties should have had bear spray, at least one person should have been on guard.
 
What should be noted is Fish and Game report that 50% of those who used fire arms suffered injury, bear spray, not nearly so much or bad.
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Hmmmm... People using guns in defense were injured about 50% of the time and people who used bear spray escaped injury "most of the time." I am not sure how much their "most" is but most could be as low as 50.1% of the time.
https://above.nasa.gov/safety/documents/Bear/bearspray_vs_bullets.pdf

If you have a better source of data for what the numbers actually are, I would be interested. All I could find is fact sheet #8.

Don't get me wrong here. I am a fan of pepper spray and figure it is a good tool to have. I just want to know what the actual comparative data really are as to deployment for defense.

I haven't purchased bear spray in years, but in the olden days, you had to stop and shake the can before spraying, lest you not actually spray much of the active ingredient. I don't know what spray the guys in the OP had, but if it required shaking before deployment, it would have been much less effective than if it had been properly prepared. https://survivalhax.com/blogs/survivalhax/what-is-oc-and-how-to-use-it
 
It's saddening to me how everyone wasn't armed. One guy had a gun, but wasn't armed.

They should have all had Glock 20s, chambered, spare mags, and with hot ammo. Most of all, the knowledge on how to properly use them.

Such a shame and what a way to go out. :/ I really think this didn't have to end as tragically as it did.

I have been chased about 3 times by wild boar here in Florida while out hunting. 2 times I had to kill them with a SIG P220 and 1 time I used a Glock 19 with Buffalo Bore +P+ along with Winchester Ranger +P+.

But those are boar....In Florida. I can't fathom those wild bears.

RIP
 
I hope you realized that I am being sarcastic with seat belt comment
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Yeppers, I recognized the intent.

I think that it must be said, though, that a seatbelt would have saved the guys. Either put the bear in a seat belt and strap it in tight, or put the unarmed yahoos into a seatbelt in a moving vehicle. When you have a jeep and you are bouncing down hill like beatle bailey on a donut run, a gun is more of a formality. Sort of like a tie at a board meeting, or a beer with your pizza.
 
everyone in the group should be familiar with the other guy's equipment. Know the safeties, know how to operate the phones, etc. If your phone is busted and your buddy is down after a car wreck outside of town, you had better know the password!
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This is excellent advice! I'll just say that you don't need to know your buddy's cell phone password (though it still wouldn't be a bad idea) because modern phones allow you to dial 911 without the password. Here's how:

Apple iPhone

For Android phones, there is a similar way to do it but can't find a decent set of instructions online, and I can't demo it because I don't have an Android. Maybe some here knows how....
 
Modern phones allow you to dial 911 without the password

For Android phones, there is a similar way to do it but can't find a decent set of instructions online...
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If the instructions aren't 9-1-1, it probably isn't a viable option
 
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