Bear protection again?

Carry a large bag of Dunkin donut holes. Toss the bag so the holes scatter around and get the bear busy scrambling to gather them up. Walk home, set yourself down on your recliner and open an adult beverage. Relax while the bear is messing up his cardiovascular system. The next time you will be able to outrun the bear....if its the same bear.

Better yet; camp with someone you REALLY don't like, and send them out with the bag of donut-holes. After they leave, you can go in the other directioni.

And don't worry about going back to camp. The person you don't like probably won't come back anyway, so take your time, and enjoy the hike.

Seriously, so many people worry about bears, yet more are hurt/killed in car wrecks or by criminals in town. No one feels overly endangered driving their car to the store in town for groceries, though...

My wife works in an area along the mex/US border, and they're having trouble with a bear following people. They figure that the bear has learned it can get food from people because of all the illegal immigrants...

Or maybe it's been eating illegal immigrants that die on their trip north? Many aren't found for months or years after they die...perhaps some not at all?

I think we need more bears here along the Az/Mexico border. If we could get them addicted to drugs before releasing them, that's all the better. I'm far more concerned about drug smugglers than bears.

Daryl
 
Do I have time to pull out the bear spray, check the wind and decide if it is right to spray ? Do I have the rocks to wait for the charging bear to get within range of the spray ?

In Alaska, as of the writing of this article, ZERO problems with wind stopping bear spray from being effective.
"As for the wind, Smith reported that in "7 percent of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached bears in every case.""

Yes, we even have wind here, and yes they did consider it when designing the bear spray.

With most bear encounters up here, you will be lucky to get anything out. If you do, would you rather use bear spray with, according to this article, basically 100% effectiveness or play with a self-defense gun with what percentage?"
"Ninety-eight percent were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters," they concluded. The few that were injured suffered minor wounds."(Using bear spray) - source for both quotes http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html

If I were a gambling man, I think that I would prefer the bear spray odds; Oh, wait, I do gamble with my life every time out of my front door, and rely on bear spray first, with firearms as a back up. (My personal closest non-bear hunting bear encounter was at four feet; yes, I believe in the effectiveness of bear spray.)

You are free to gamble how ever you so choose, should you come up and visit the bears.
 
I just returned from a 2 week AK adventure, where I hiked all over the Chugach and Kachemak. I saw a good mix of folks carrying bear spray and revolvers. One guy even had some kind of short barreled lever-action on a day hike in the Chugach.

I decided to carry my .44 mag (S&W 329) with the high velocity hardcast 320s while my wife carried a can of the spray. Bases covered, we felt as prepared as reasonable while noisily hiking around.

Oh, we saw lots of scat on the trail, and huge tracks which stayed on one trail for over a mile, but no direct bear sighting.

FWIW.
 
We want the solution to be a gun because we are gun folk. In this instance, however, empirical evidence shows bear spray to be a more effective technology for the application. That doesn't mean a gun (a BIG gun) is useless, or has no place in the hikers toolkit. It just means that, contrary to what most of us are used to when considering defensive situations against violent humans, the spray should be option number one against a bear. That's what the facts tell us.

The facts don't care about our feelings on the matter.

I, for one, would probably unshoulder my shotgun or draw my (BIG) revolver, as soon as the big bruin was beat back (you're welcome, alliteration fans). In the rare (essentially unheard of, according to the linked report) case that a sprayed bear returned to continue the attack, I would expect that, somewhat recovered and a bit more composed, I would then be better able to dispatch the beast with properly aimed shots. Realistically, though, at that point the gun would more likely be functioning as a security blanket rather than an actual protective tool. As we are emotional creatures, there can be a place for a security blanket. It is imperative, though, that we never mistake it's morale-boosting properties for functional effectiveness.

Steel is certainly reassuring, but whatever I had on my hip or over my shoulder, the weapon I would have in my hand on a hike through bear country would be a can of bear spray.
 
A quart of Black-berries and a peanut-butter'n'honey sandwitch, ...in my buddies huntin' pack... :D

Hot .357 Magnum 180 gr. FMJ/TMF out of a 6-1/2 in. Ruger Blackhawk. (~ 1400 fps hot)

Burrows Right in with little or no expansion.

My first choice because I can hit a teacup at 25 yards w/ it 6/6, ... and I don't think missin' 6/6 w/ a .44 Magnum would suffice.
 
While sleeping in a tent, I would definately rather discharge a firemarm than pepper spray. If you had to defend another person that was a little ways off, a firearm would be more effective there also.
 
Well, in Alaska...

First, I'd want AZAK or one of our other resident Alaskans leading the way. Then I'd want spray and a rifle; I always said I'd feel safest with my FAL and a full 20 round mag and a spare. I doubt I'd want any of my pistols with me, even though I own a Redhawk in .44 mag. I simply don't think you can swat one of those large bears too hard. I make do with hot 10mm for Michigan's blackies, but they don't go over 600 lbs, which is tiny for a Grizzly or Brownie. Even my FAL is one of the long heavy ones, so I'd suffer, or want for a specialty tool. Say! Think I've just found a use for one of those SA Socom 16s!;) Doubtful I'll ever visit Alaska though, unless on the deck of a cruise ship.
 
Take a long an extra pair of pants and toilet paper too. If an attack occurs and you survive it, you will need both and will be glad you took them along.
 
Best advice so far..........

Take a long an extra pair of pants and toilet paper too. If an attack occurs and you survive it, you will need both and will be glad you took them along.
 
Wasn't there an article about a guy downing a bear in the Denali Forest with his .45 ACP?

I personally would use my .45 colt S&W big frame revolver with some Buffalo Bore 45 Colt +P
 
Knowledge, Common Sense, Spray, Lead

Sport45 said:
How many times do the guys that live in the Alaskan woods have to tell us that pepper spray and common sense are the best defense before we start to listen?

At least one more time, apparently.

A couple of years ago I posted an idea: Get some of those shot capsules for your handgun. Fill it with the liquid from the pepper spray. Load it into your 44 Magnum (or what have you). If you could get it to produce a 6' diameter cloud of pepper juice at 20' you might have something.

Followup shots could be more pepper, and eventually, lead.

An answering post suggested it might be a marketing success if it produced a lot of noise and recoil (irrelevant to the bear, but psychologically satisfying to the shooter).

I did the math. A 45 Colt cartridge case could not hold enough pepper juice (even at 100% concentration - most sprays are 3% to 10%) to be effective. Even if I had a full-barrel-length capsule inserted in an eight-inch barrel I could not come anywhere near enough liquid to be effective.

Tantalizing idea, though. Best of both worlds. Pepper spray on the first shot (powered by a cartridge designed for the purpose, no blowups here) followed by hard cast lead. And, of course, the machismo of carrying a chunk of steel on the hip, not a flimsy little spray can.

There are reasons for firearms (both long and short) and spray (ultimately more effective than firearms - read the State of Alaska Web Site - far fewer and less severe injuries among spray users than among firearms users).

The last encouragement for me to prefer bear spray is one of convenience. Nothing can ruin a good hike in the woods or fishing weekend than turning it into a stalk for a wounded bear. A DLP (Defense of Life or Property) shoot has to be reported, investigated and the shooter (if uninjured) is responsible for the carcass and you don't even get to keep the cape and skull!


http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=bears.main
A peer-reviewed analysis of bear/human interactions is presented here
http://www.nps.gov/glba/planyourvisit/upload/bear spray in Alaska.pdf
but an easier read is:
http://news.byu.edu/archive08-Mar-bearspray.aspx


Here is an actual account of one successful (for the people and for the bear)

http://www.adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html
or if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
adn.com/bearattacks/story/147318.html

and three more from a guy who lives, literally, IN bear territory, all the time.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=504692
it is halfway down page 5 of the thread.

windwalker said:
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:29 pm

First a few pointer about bear spray. Make sure you use bear spray not mace or some other product, I like counter assault . I use the 8 oz cans, they are good for about 5 one second bursts. Maximum range is 30 feet, 20 feet is way better. Always carry it in a holster on your strong side. If it's in your pack, it might just as well be at home.
I have sprayed three grizz and one black bear over the course of 14 years. I also spend a lot of time in country with lots of bears. (just north of Glacier Park, Montana).

Grizzly number one stole a goat hide out of my tack room, I followed the salt trail into the woods about 40 yards and surprized a two or three year old bear at about 50 feet. He (bluff?) charged and I sprayed him in the face at about 25 feet, he turned 90 degrees and ran off. end of story.

JGrizz number chased me and the dog up on top of my trailer loaded with hay I sprayed him in the face about 6 feet below me. He ran head first into the trailer two or three times then ran off.

Grizz number three was in the garbage at camp at night. I thought it was a black bear saw i walked to within about 15 feet a yelled, not a good idea.He stood up took one step tward me a I sprayed him. He flipped over backward and rolled around on the ground for what seened like a lont time then left. This was a big bear, maybe 8 1/5 feet and 700 pounds.

The black bear sow with one cub stepped out in front of my horse and caused me to be bucked off. I landed on my bear spray and punched a small hole that started to hssssssss...which further annoyed my horse. I pulled the can out and threw it at the bear and hit baby bear, mama picked up the can and bit into it setting off the rest of the spray. They both ran off with mama almost running over the top of me. NOw this is very important...never ever have a **** with bear spray on your fingers.

It has always worked for me but I still take the shotgun if I have to go after a wounded bear.
Dave

Best wishes,

Lost Sheep
 
The National Park folk say pepper spray works almost every time. It’s that “almost” word which concerns me.

A 12 gauge loaded with slug or #4 shot is recommended, but do you carry a shotgun at the ready? Can one unlimber a shotgun before the bear-er is atop the bear-ee and the shotgunner-er finds the shotgun is of little use against the shotgun-ee?

It seems to me that the best defense is a big bore revolver, as big as one can get. I don’t believe follow up shots are going to be of much use, unless straight up from an inverted prone position into the bear’s belly.


I'll stop just short of calling the Nazi Park Circus uh.....folks liars and say their statements are probably true under certain circumstances and conditions.

However, in places like the AKPEN, more often than not, the wind is howling at 20+ knots nearly all the time. Good luck in getting that pepper spray deployed on target in a cross-wind or heaven forbid, downwind of an upwind bear where you can't circle above it.

I've had to deal with dumpster-diving coastal browns every year for the last 9years now and dumpster-diving black bears for about 7+ years before that. I have about a half-dozen DLP brown bear kills and finally this year, a 9 footer that I could actually keep during the spring hunting season (BTW not a dumpster diver). I've learned several things and made several observations during that time.

Rule 1: We don't screw around with pepper spray. The climate/weather conditions aren't conducive to it here or anywhere else on the AKPEN as the wind is usually howling in its normal fashion. It's even rare that we can use pepper spray against two-legged miscreants. Nor do we bother with less-lethal munitions like fin-stabilized and sock monkeys. We tried that, they always return.

The first attempt at deterrence is a load of #4 Nitro Steel up the tailpipe from 25 to 35 yrds away if we can get them to turn away. Everything else in the magazine is a Brenneke slug just in case they take exception to getting burned in the arse. All but a couple of the DLP kills were done with Brennekes. They do kill deader than they need to.

However, those methods are used in my professional life and working as a team with at least one other person..........most of the time. I have used the same methods the few times I had bears sniffing around my windows, chewing on my house and trying to hug my smokehouse full of drying or smoking salmon.
I don't recommend other folks going about their business to try them unless they know what they're doing. If you are out and about with a shotgun as bear defense, stack the mag with slugs and call it good.

I also don't feel undergunned or at a disadvantage carrying a big-bore revolver stuffed with heavy hardcast flat-nosed bullet loads. Federal Castcore is pretty decent for factory loads and can be shot out of any revolver. Chances are the revolver is more likely to be with me when I need it than a long gun is when I need it.

In a tent at night snugged up in my sleeping bag, it helps me sleep better. :D

If I'm expecting bear encounters then it's no contest, I'll have a long gun in my hands at the ready.

Some of the observations I've made are:

Most troublesome bears are young misfits 2-3 yoa that just got kicked away from mom and don't quite know how to function on their own or they've been territorially displaced by a larger, stronger bear.

A 3 yo brown bear can push down on a 600+ pound dumpster, fish out a bag of garbage and ease the dumpster back on the ground without making a sound. Kids sneaking into cookie jars make more noise. :eek:

Hostile encounters with sows and cubs are actually pretty rare unless they are truely surprised. All the sows with cubs that I've seen that were aware of mine or someone else's presence really try to leave the area and avoid a conflict. This may be due to the fact that mature boars are always trying to kill cubs.

Coastal browns tend to have a more docile disposition than their interior grizzly brethern.

Coastal bears are more scavenger-like being well-fed on salmon and whatever marine mammals from seals to sea lions to whales that happen to wash up on the beaches.

Interior grizzlies are predatory and have to fight, scrap, steal and kill just about every bite they eat. They're always walking around half-hungry and ******-off. Their smaller sizes reflect the lack of abundance of food for them.

Black bears are delicious and absolutely, totally unpredictable.

Your best first line of defense is always going to be awareness of your surroundings.
 
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Look carefully at the bear sprays now. They are good. I still think the shotgun with four buckshot is proven but understand the desire of a revolver.
 
Thank you for the information stevelyn, . . . what you said made good sense to me.

My one encounter with a bear in Alaska was in February of '66, . . . a BIG stuffed brownie in the Anchorage air port, in the corner of the penny arcade. He scared the bejeebers out of me and I darned near punched him with a scrawney 21 year old fist.

I think that will be all the AK bear encounters I ever need, . . . thank you.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
So moose (mooses, moosi???) kill more people than bears, but why don't we see any "What's the best defense against moose?" Threads. For that matter, bees kill more people than moose, but I've never seen a "What's the best gun for bee protection?" thread.
Why is everyone so interested in bears. Poor things need a better PR man or something.
 
OkieCruffler said:
For that matter, bees kill more people than moose, but I've never seen a "What's the best gun for bee protection?" thread.

Don't you know? Everyone who packs an extra gun for the chance encounter with a bear also packs an EpiPen in case they are attacked by bees or hornets. They've also installed 5-point harness seat belts in their vehicles for the chance accident and have a fire extinguisher in every room of their house. Can't be too safe you know. :)
 
James Gary Shelton recommends BOTH high power guns and pepper spray when in bear country. With so much at risk, depending on only one bear defense is not prudent. I go with Marlin in .444 which I can shoulder quicker than most can draw a handgun. It gives me 3000 ftpds of muzzle energy that is more than double a .44 handgun. Many consider this the minimum for bear protection.

In addition, keeping the number of people at 4 or more significantly reduces the risk of an attack right from the get go. The other major issue in bear attacks is visibility, the less the visible area to observe your surroundings, the higher the risk of an attack. If you go in the alders, you need to be more than John Wayne or Clint Eastwood to get away with it. Bears can tear through them quicker than you can even hear them coming. A few cracks and crashes in the bush and he has you before you can even get to your defense. Staying away from dense brush is a must if you wish to have the time to see the bear before he has you in his sights is a must.
 
Show on Animal Planet last night...

...Talked about increasing animal attacks on humans, from nearly all preditor animals

I guess I'm personally in the "big & slow" catagory I built a custom 44 magnum snubbie many years ago for bigger pretitor protection... & just reciently bought a Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull that is stainless, bought mostly because my 44 mag snubbie is blued

but there is alot to be said for multiple shots, if you could shoot a 10mm auto well / better than a revolver... I personally draw the line as 357 Mag out of a 4" barrel, as minimum "big woods protection" & 44 mags & 45 / 454 could be OK with sub 4" barrels...

... that show talked alot about packs of ferral dogs, & even "yotes" killed an adult woman hiking in east Canada this last year, Cougar attacks are on the rise... what it comes down to, is these animals are getting so used to seeing humans, that they are no longer afraid of humans... in fact grizzlies in elk hunting areas, are getting conditioned to the sound of guns, knowing that there will be a gut pile ( their favorite parts ) at the source of the shot, & if you are not quick enough, you may have the bear beat you to your target...

... this raises the question... what happens if you are just informally plinking in the woods, & the bear comes looking for his dinner, & only finds you, & no gut pile :eek:

BTW... in that show, they showed a guy that was camping with his family, who had a chainsaw for cutting up dead wood... a cougar attacked him while out gathering wood, while the chainsaw was running, it was not afraid of him, or the sound of the running chainsaw... they said, when he saw the cat, he revved it up & took a step towards the big cat, trying to scare it off... they stared each other down for a bit, & the cat attacked anyway & he had to use the chainsaw as a weapon... the park rangers later found & killed a cougar with an 8" chainsaw wound across it's shoulder... BTW... DYK... right now there are 1,000's of yotes living in Chicago...

for defense against the "pack" animals, the 10mm might be better... but for bears, I carry spray & a Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casull :)
 
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