Bear defence with a 9mm

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The odds are 99% that most blackies will vacate the territory if they know you are there and stirring. (Trained garbage bears being something of an exception.) Pepper spray will probably work better at repelling a bear than a handgun. That said...

Black bear are about the size of humans - 150 to 250#s. Unlike humans they are not thin skinned and for a given weight their muscle structure is much thicker than a human's and the bone is heavier.

I'd second the recommendations for as heavy a bullet going as fast as you can tweak it.

To stop a seriously annoyed blackie you will need a CNS hit, or to break bone, such as the shoulder. Given a bear's bone structure a heavy 9mm at close range "might" break a shoulder joint. The smaller, leaner the bear the better the odds. But I wouldn't want to bet on it regularly. Especially since you don't get to pick the bear - and probably won't get to pick the shot.

For a CNS hit you're talking about the brain or spine. For that a heavy 9mm slug should work if you're shooting from a point above the bear - I don't think you could reliably expect to clip the spine with a side shot through the shoulders.

The drawback is that you and the bear both are apt to be in a great hurry and the brain pan and spinal cord are not large targets.

If the bear is "on" you before you see it (i.e., pulling you out of the tent/sleeping bag or you stopped to clean fish somewhere between a sow and her cubs)your best bet is to curl up and play dead. I'd note that in recent decades there have been instances of black bear looking at humans as a food source - in which case playing dead is probably not the right choice. If you can get to a gun in this situation your best option is to try to poke the barrel in the bear's mouth and go for the gold.

Alternatively, put as many as you can somewhere in the body cavity and hope the bear bleeds out or becomes discouraged while you're still in good enough shape to benefit from skilled medical attention.

In this scenario an auto is of questionable advantage. True - it has a much higher ammo capacity - but keeping enough space for the slide to operate effectively is iffy.

The odds are real high that you'll never have to find out how effective a P-35 is against an attacking black bear. In fact the odds are probably about the same as for you winning the state lottery. I wish you luck in both endevors.

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Jim Fox
 
I would hope you have at lest a 15 round clip
then stager the ammo with corbon or hydra-shock largest cal' and 147gr FMJ+P+
loads and hope like hell one Hits hard enough too stop EM :eek:

IN fact make that a 30 round clip!!
Or 2 15s
Tony Z

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www.vote.com
 
Moe, I've spoken to a custom gun maker about this before. He's done a lot of bear hunting, and we were all sitting around the campfire disscussing bear attacks one night at hunting camp. He's done a lot of research, and apparently shot placement has more to do with surviving a bear attack than on a human. A bear has a metabolism 6 times slower than a human. Therefore, if shot in the heart (completely gone) the bear will continue to advance 6 times longer than a human would...long enough for him to crunch down on your head. In other words, if you have the time, shoot for the head!
 
Greeting Moe!

I don't claim to be an expert. But if I were in such a dire situation I would use fmj exclusively in a 9mm for big game. Also a small can of "Bear Gaurd" or any other really good Peper spray can help temporarily befuddle the attacking beast and give you a chanse to escape if all else fails! I feal like I want to chukle at the prospect...but I know any defense is better than none at all...

Peace
:cool: IZZY

P.S. if all else fails throw rocks to disuade an attack...it has worked before!
 
Moe; If you live in an area of small black bears like I do and a HP is all you have available- Don't worry about it, your HP is fine. Millions of families in this wonderful country go camping every year armed with nothing but a "SPATULA"! When we go camping I like my glock 21 but my wife carries a S&W 910 because it's lightweight, reliable, and she shoots it well. Try PROLOADS 9MM 124gr. +P FMJ FLAT POINT. That's the 9mm load I like in the woods. Good Luck, j.s.
 
Battle axe or two handed sword!
it is an unarmed animal
or soon will be
;)

fear is the enemy
black bears are not

If all you have is a 9 mm and you are under attack, then you must attack! ROAR! fire once in the air. Most black bears are in the next county at the sight of a human. If you are
being charged, then act like a house cat vs the pitbull. Make a big loud sound and expand your size. An animal will stop.

If you have just met Cujo the bear that is on a mission of human termination, then its Darwin time.

Humans have the ability to strike at a distance. If the bear stops at 10 feet and rears up, how many rounds can you put into a coffee can at 10 feet?


BE prepared!
Where is your dog?

dZ
 
FMJ 124 or heavier. Maybe NATO ammunition since it is hot. From this source it appears that 9mm FMJ is a good penetrating round (at least plywood and drywall). How well will this data correlate with tissue penetration? http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/penetration.htm
I doubt bears are much of a threat compared to two legged critters. 9mm is great for the more dangerous two legged threats. I would also want a 6-7" knive on my belt.
 
Black bears are way overrated as a threat. I live an an area where black bears are common. I constantly walk, jog and bike in areas where bear populations are high. The resident bears are regularly visiting my yard. They tear down feeders and get into the garbage, but they are rarely a threat. In the last three years, there have been seven murders and countless assaults in my county. There have been no bear attacks in recent memory (ten years at least).

As with the two legged predators, avoiding the problem is the key. The best way to take care of attacks by man or beast is to aviod the problem before it goes to guns. Understanding bear behavior is one step. Bears do not like surprise or threats to themselves or their young. Bears also give audible and behavioral warnings prior to a defensive attack.

I consider a bear attack so out of the realm of possibility that I do not usually carry anything larger than a 9mm. I like the 9mm for outdoor adventures. Reasonable power, light weight and the magazines hold 15 rounds without having bullets rattling around in my pocket.

When camping in bear territory, always take a knife into the tent. The knife is not to defend against bears, it is to make a back door in the tent if a bear comes in the front.
 
I would buy whatever 9mm cartridge makes the most noise and try to scare it away. I remember hearing that bears will avoid noise if posssible so if I had to carry a 9mm in bear country I would put bells in my shoes. If none of this is an option I would go for 115 gr fmj and try to get lucky with a shot and have enough penetration to get to a vital organ. Regards, Richard.
 
I'll ring in again...I agree with dZ...make yourself out to be the baddest hombre on earth...a real bear killin' machine, yelling, looking big, kickin' rocks, all that stuff, and NO MATTER WHAT, if the fight goes to the ground, DON'T STOP FIGHTING! Numerous attackees have saved themselves by putting up a fight. But still, shoot for the head.

[This message has been edited by Frontsight! (edited March 23, 2000).]
 
[Lector]ya gotta just think about how good that bears liver is gonna taste with a nice chianti

thp thp thp thp[/Lector]

;)

dZ
 
While on a black bear hunt in Alaska, I saw a 200 lbs black bear climb an 80 degree river bank after being shot through the cheast with a 338mag.

The bear ran parallel along this very steep bank and was shot 2 more times by the .338mag. It then stoped behind a bush where it was killed by a .454.

On the same hunt I shot a 270 lbs black bear through the heart with .300mag, it ran almost 70 yards into the brush.

It doesn't matter what you carry for bear defense. I would carry a solid brass load and aim for the sholders or hips. This might stop them. The noise is what will probably save you, not the bullet.

Pepper spray is probably the best.

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so he cocked both his pistols, spit in the dirt, and walked out into the street.
 
I would recommend 147gr ball and training to fire very fast aiming at the bear's face. With black bears, you'd stand a good chance...

Two anecdotes on this:

1950s, upstate NY, I think...gent comes out of his home and gets pestered by a black bear. Kills it with four shots to the head from a .25 Colt Vest Pocket.

1990s, manuevers in Germany. Army guy from Holland or Denmark, can't recall, goes to take a piss in the woods. Gets charged by *something* in the dark and empies a 32-round Uzi magazine at it. Turns out it was a wild boar which was down with broken legs and other damage (20 hits or so at that close range, aimed mostly at the noise). The pig lived for another 20 minutes because no one thought to finish it off. FOlks stuck close to camp that night.

Guess it can go either way, eh?
 
I'm sorry, but I cannot in good conscious recommend any 9mm load configuration for serious bear defense. You truely are better served moving up to the larger magnum rounds ala the .44 magnum. (Or a rifle, for that matter) You are talking about bear defense, after all. Hunting black bears is different from defending a sudden charge. According to Murphy's law, the bear will be close, large, and very fast. A charging bear will present a much harder CNS target than you would imagine. You will probably have only one or two shots to rely on. (If you have time to aim multiple shots, the game warden will probably present a good argument for prosecuting you.) We all know about shooters reactions against people in a life or death situation- I suggest the fear level will be at least as high, and your reactions at least as poor, with a large Bruin coming at you. If the threat it real, spend the money for adequate defense.


Bear spray works most of the time, by the way. If it is a real concern, get some.

Erik

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited March 23, 2000).]
 
I just want to thank everyone for your feedback. To help I want to explain myself. First, this is a serious question. Second, black bear defence comes about for me as two close hunting buddies of mine were attacked last fall by a black bear while hunting small game. That ends the "it just don't happen out east" crap. My reason for the Hi-power in 9mm. Why? I am a soldier. I believe when a bad thing happens that above all else training will take over when and if the mine don't work under stress. I am a competitive shooter (LMG,rifle,handgun) and believe you have the best chance with using what you train with. Period. I can't see it benificial to try to change 14 years of training and experience to get more bang a la 44 mag. I have a browning and I have every bit of confidence that I can hit what I aim at with "it". However I do IPSC and last year bought a CZ 75. It has a ported barrel, adjustable sites. Ok I will do well with this, better than with the stock browning. Not! I can't undo the training. CZ sold! Bye bye. My wifes colt 45 is close to the browning in size and controls. Can't hit anything with it either. If I could shake this off or never shot a handgun before I would probably buy a S&W 44 mag or a ruger DA in 454.

Please keep it comming.

Moe
 
If you have been trained would you try to learn a new weapon? Have you?

Moe


[This message has been edited by Moe (edited March 23, 2000).]
 
No, Moe I wouldn't try to learn on another weapon unless it for something silly... like having an adequate weapon to keep me from being eaten alive by a 200 lb monster. Sorry for the sarcasm, but what most are saying here is that you do need a bigger bang. If you're not going to take the advice, why ask?
 
Darwin time, DZ, LOL!

I know one fellow who outmanuevered a bear once. The bear chased him and he ran down on a steep hill, zigged 90 degrees and the bear, who couldn't stop, kept barrelling downhill. The fellow didn't stop to gloat about his good luck and kept on running.
 
Moe:

The 9mm is an adequate man stopper, but just cannot be loaded for reasonable use against black bears. You need a bigger gun. A good 41 Magnum or 44 Magnum with proper hard-cast bullets is what is called for.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
I know a few guys that used to shoot black bears with 22lr back when you could trap and dog hunt here. Treed bears with dogs or traps are much differant than bears in your face. With a FMJ and the 9s penatration it may work some days and not on others. At least a .41 as a bare minimum in my book to feel half way safe. A AK-47 to feel totaly safe. Blacks go down fairly easy with a good shot,it is just hard to get that shot when they come after you. Also most folks try to shoot them in the forehead which is well above the skull.If you can't see up their snout a shot between the eyes may just skid over the skull with a pistol bullet.
 
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