Be careful, or you could lose your CCW

Um Jim that was an incident involving fraud that I cant beleive has not been the subject of civil litigation in state and federal court. Care to enlighten me as to why?

Three issues:

#1: The party defrauded was one of these guys that was really smart, really creative, illiterate and had a massive case of dyslexia. I've now met two more like that, amazing people but... The crooks who ripped him off assumed he wouldn't be able to communicate what happened to him. That's what made him a target. When he met me, I was skeptical but started going through the paperwork and eventually went to Portland OR to dig for records, the best of which are on that page. Among other hats I've worn, I'm a decent tech writer and THAT the bad guys weren't expecting. Which led to death threats against me, my trying to score a California CCW, getting denied...in other words this was the event that got me into RKBA at all. Early RKBA websites started linking to my reporting on this because it was a documented case of gun theft out of a police lockup...in checking who was linking to me, I got my first intro to RKBA theory that way.

Anyways.

#2: I had a HELL of a time just getting the criminal charges (the three claimed "post mortem" violations of the RO) dropped. Getting anybody in law enforcement to investigate the fraud proved impossible. My best guess is that Officer John Laws knew exactly what he was doing having his Captain sign off on the paper release forms for the guns. To admit that this all happened would be to stain too big a piece of the department...including the entire "Family Law" unit Laws worked for. There were other scandals in that agency around the same time, so the Blue Wall went up. (I note too that Portland OR PD has more reports of police misconduct going on than any city it's size I'm aware of, including *constant* harassment of open-carriers in violation of state law.)

#3: Howard suffered a stroke a couple years after this and lost a lot of memory. It's likely impossible to sort this out now. He's made a modest life for himself a couple thousand miles away.

---

There were other things going on too.

The wife was involved in mortgage fraud. She had been a bit player in a scam in WA state and Howard had managed to get her clear of that one...and then told her not to do something that stupid again. She didn't listen and was the center of another such.

She needed Howard gone before he caught wind of either that or the new boyfriend :rolleyes: - who was a partner in the mortgage scam, not Laws surprisingly enough.

I don't know for sure just what Laws got out of the whole deal. I'm told (not by Howard) that he got low-cost real estate loans from her, but that's not confirmed.

Anyways. One of the things I've got is an audio tape of that ex-wife and Officer John Laws in before the judge, where Laws claimed that Howard had "a former RICO conviction" and otherwise painted him as a criminal. I've also seen Howard's deputy sheriff badge and papers from Alaska (pretty common for hunting and fishing guides) so I have to assume he'd been through a background check to get that.

This mess was basically "as bad as it gets" in terms of false charges, false DV claims, lies, fraud, you name it.
 
Reminds me of a Run in had with the Youth and Family Services here one time. It seems your not allowed to face your accusers until the court date comes. I was Judge ordered to leave my house for 30 days. After that time the judge allowed me to live in my own home as long a I did not talk to my son or my wife about the case!:confused:

The State kept pressing my wife to file other charges on me , even after she repeatably told them it did not happen.

The charge was Child Abuse causing bodily harm. Felony

I was messing with my 5 year old and dropped him on his head. Not Good. Like a fool we sent him to school with the bruise on his forehead. Someone cohersed a story out of him that I through him at the wall.

I ended up spending a year and a half with that rat race.

In the end to preserve my sanity, took a plea for Child Abandonment a Misdemeanor.


From that day forward, I want nothing to do with the legal system of this Country. State or County.

I had no money for a Real Loyer! I was issued a Public Defender, Paid by the same people that was after me! They most likely Played Golf together on the week ends. What A Joke!:eek:
 
WildAlaska informed me in private that there's no such thing as a deputy sheriff's position in Alaska. He's probably right, because I recall from election issues that Alaska has no "counties" but is rather handled like one big county.

It's been 10 years since I saw Howard's papers on that subject. My best recollection is that he had something like a reserve game warden commission. That wouldn't have been automatic for hunting/fishing guides but it's not impossible.

---

The DV system is the second-most-screwed-up part of the overall justice system. One way to reform it: allow the accused to introduce evidence that the "complaining party" lied, no matter how much time has passed after the conviction, overturning it and triggering automatic felony false complaint charges. That would cut down 95% of the bullpuckey.

The MOST screwed up area of the courts involves juvenile matters, which is often intertwined with DV issues of course. But the kicker with juvenile cases: the records and proceedings are withheld from public scrutiny forever. That in turns leads to absolute horrorshows. Courts are supposed to be public for a reason. You wouldn't want to be hauled in front of a "secret court" and you wouldn't want your kid hauled into one either.

Situations where a parent is accused of abuse are also potentially troubling "secret courts", again, "for the children"...
 
Be careful, or you could lose your CCW

Be careful of what? Just what could you have been careful about that would have changed the situation? You can't stop people from lying. About the only thing you could have done to keep this from happening was to have never gone out with the woman in the first place. Of course, you would have needed to be psychic to know beforehand that things would have ended badly and hence not dated the woman.
 
I would normally take the same stance as W A in threads like this,
but Divemedic's case is not at all unusual,
As a matter of fact it is very common here

Did I ever tell y'all about the time I spent 20 days in county lock up with no charges filed, no formal access to a lawyer, when there was no complaint against me from the ex, who was over 50 miles away and incommunicado at time of the the one and only ever alleged incident of DV against me

And by the way the comment that infuriated the judge enough to grant an RO in the first place was that I said her boyfriend sounded like a short stroker when she tried to gleefully detail the events of their "first night together"
 
Be careful of what?

That's easy - relationships, that's what. Until the travesty that is lautenberg is repealed, I am effectively barred from dating seriously - much too risky. Women could squash your gonads in a vice with a mere accusation before lautenberg. Now, if you value your guns & the RKBA, they squash your gonads, render you defenseless, have your property stolen, and pretty much ruin your life, with a mere *accusation* without a conviction.

I would normally take the same stance as W A in threads like this,

Now why would anyone admit to a self-imposed handicap like that!? :p
 
That's easy - relationships,

Yeah, but the issue really isn't one about CCW, but about everything and it has been a problem for quite some time.

Once again, short of being psychic, you can't prevent this sort of thing from happening. At least I don't know anyone who would knowingly go into a relationship where they expect their counterpart to be filing police charges against them at some unknown point in the future.

render you defenseless

What a sad sentiment.

I don't consider myself defenseless without guns, just not armed with a gun. To consider oneself defenseless without a gun is quite a defeatest paradigm and it is one often repeated on this and other gun boards.
 
Wild, the law in NY requires a permit to OWN a handgun.
I know that.


That permit may be revoked and the weapons confiscated by the issuing authority at any time and for any reason they want.
That is incorrect.



There is not higher court to go to

That is incorrect.

You have no higher court to appeal to because the judges themselves, already automatically qualifying for a lifetime NY concealed carry permit, interpreted the law to mean they could do as they please. Without a major legislative rewrite of the law (not likely in liberal land) they do as they please here.

Just so we are clear...are you contending, in the State of NY, that NO judge has ever reinstated an improperly revoked or suspended permit?In addition thereto, are you contending that in the State of NY, no Judge has ever overidden the decision not to grant a permit?

Wild, again you know NOTHING of NY.

From the State Police:
http://www.troopers.state.ny.us/FAQs/Firearms/Permits.cfm
Q - When can a licensing officer revoke a pistol permit?
The New York State Penal Law provides a number of instances which mandate the automatic revocation of a pistol permit, such as conviction for a felony-level crime or a serious offense.

The law also provides for the cancellation of a license at any time by a judge or justice of a court of record who decides that a licensee is no longer fit to possess firearms.

Purely discretionary. This is handled by Judges in the counties north of NYC and by either Justices or the issuing agency (Nassua, Suffolk PD or Sheriff depending on where).

http://www.co.suffolk.ny.us/Police/Pistol_ License_ Handbook-020505.pdf

Per this piece of literature you can be notified by mail of the revocation or suspension, at the same time they specifically DO NOT say they cannot just go to your home and claim them. I have SEEN officers preparing to do this while at the office years ago. When you go through the whole process of getting a permit you are told it is entirely discretionary. Owning a handgun is NOT considerred a right in NY. Please also not that the appeal of any decision is made to the same authority that made the decision. Perhaps in some regions one may get a different judge to change a decision. THat is still al ongshot as it is the judges who gave themselves the power to add restrictions beyond what was written into penal law. It was then upheld byu judges when challenged. Try finding a gov't official who will voluntarily REDUCE the amount of power they hold over the people... good luck!

In Suffolk and Nassau though you appeal to the same people who made the decision. They all sit in the same room and it is clearly an "us" (cops) vs. "them" (the rest of us) mentaility. At least one in Suffolk was on rubber gun detail. He was a coworkers neighbor and an alcoholic with a superiority complex that they figured was better off dealing with people who are basically all NOT criminals from an office than anywhere else. Luck us, we get to deal with him. If they work to protect this moron do you think little people have any chance when appealing one of their own decisions to them?

You can also see that a restraining order will result in the immediate suspension of a permit and confiscation of arms. Restraining orders are given out like candy at Halloween to women who ask for them.
 
Don't live with them unless your married to them.

Too much potentional for problems with joint property as this story shows. With some of these lib judges, the man is guilty until proven otherwise.
 
Wild, again you know NOTHING of NY.

So prove me wrong and answer the question:

Are you contending, in the State of NY, that NO judge has ever reinstated an improperly revoked or suspended permit?In addition thereto, are you contending that in the State of NY, no Judge has ever overidden the decision not to grant a permit?

You know why your avoiding it? Becasue the answer doesnt fit into your rhetorical world view?

Here I'll help you..

In the Matter of David Beach, Petitioner,
v
Raymond Kelly, as Statutorily Designated Handgun Licensing Officer and as Police Commissioner of the City of New York, Respondent.

Supreme Court, New York County, May 18, 2007

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL

John S. Chambers, New York City, for petitioner. Michael A. Cardozo, Corporation Counsel, New York City (Desiree A. Wise of counsel), for respondent.

OPINION OF THE COURT

Jane S. Solomon, J.

Petitioner David Beach petitions this court for a judgment pursuant to CPLR article 78 compelling and directing respondent Raymond Kelly, as the statutorily designated handgun licensing officer and as the New York City Police Commissioner, and his successors to (1) grant petitioner a continuation of his pistol permit on the grounds that respondent ignored, and/or misinterpreted the 1986 federal law known as the Firearm Owners' Protection Act; and (2) grant petitioner a continuation of his pistol permit based upon the grounds that the revocation of this permit by respondent is "shocking to one's sense of fairness." For the reasons described herein, the petition is granted.
[*2]Background

*Omitted* In or about March 2001 he applied to respondent's License Division for a premises resident pistol license. This is a restricted license, issued for a specific residence location. (See 38 RCNY 5-01 [a].) It differs from other types of licenses, which permit a licensee to carry a loaded handgun, either during specified times for certain business reasons or without restrictions. (See id.)

A premises resident pistol license does, however, permit the licensee to transport an unloaded handgun that is secured unloaded in a locked container directly to and from authorized small arms ranges/shooting clubs. (Id.) Ammunition needs to be carried separately. (Id.) Transportation to and from areas designated by the New York State Fish and Wildlife Law is also permitted if the licensee has a separate hunting authorization. (See 38 RCNY 5-23 [a] [1]-[4].) Other than these specific exceptions, the handgun must be safeguarded at the specific address indicated on the license. Petitioner's license clearly reads "RESTRICTED—NOT FOR CARRY."

By a letter dated September 10, 2001, the License Division approved petitioner's premises residence license. It renewed his application the subsequent two years. On or about July 25, 2003, petitioner's pistol was stolen from his vehicle. Petitioner reported the incident to the License Division, and, following an investigation into the matter, petitioner's license was continued.

On or about January 9, 2004, petitioner went to have his pistol inspected by the License Division. It was discovered that petitioner carried his ammunition in the same box as his newly purchased pistol and that he had an expired purchase order in violation of 38 RCNY 5-24 (a) (5) and (6). As a result of an investigation, petitioner's license was suspended until June 9, 2004.

When petitioner attempted to renew his license in August 2004, the License Division became aware that he transported a handgun by plane to Las Vegas, Nevada, in 2003 to attend security related seminars, conventions and training sessions. Petitioner also held the equivalent of a full carry pistol license in Nevada, and he states that he was required to have licenses from both states in order to check his handgun with the airline. Prior to his trip, petitioner contacted the License Division regarding taking his pistol to Nevada, but testified that he [*3]never received a clear answer. He states that he checked his handgun in a locked container, unloaded and without ammunition.

Following an investigation, the License Division revoked petitioner's license by letter dated December 1, 2004. Upon petitioner's request, the License Division scheduled a hearing for January 11, 2006.[FN*] Hearing Officer Arlynne Lowell (H.O. Lowell) presided over the hearing, and petitioner and Investigator Patsy Brewster both testified. On January 13, 2006, H.O. Lowell notified petitioner it misinterpreted 18 USC § 926 during the January 11, 2006 hearing, and that a second hearing would be required. Commonly known as the Firearm Owners' Protection Act, 18 USC § 926A provides:

Cite Omitted

Following the second hearing in March 2006, H.O. Lowell recommended that petitioner's pistol license remain revoked. On May 17, 2006, the License Division agreed, informing petitioner by letter of the same. On September 19, 2006, petitioner commenced this article 78 proceeding. He asserts that the reasoning underlying the final agency action was arbitrary and capricious, and in violation of 18 USC § 926A.
Discussion

CPLR 7804 (g) requires this court to transfer to the Appellate Division any article 78 case where there is an issue raised of substantial evidence, as specified in CPLR 7803 (4). (See Matter of Al Turi Landfill v New York State Dept. of Envtl. Conservation, 98 NY2d 758 [2002].) It is well settled that possessing a handgun license in New York is a privilege rather than a right (Sewell v [*4]City of New York, 182 AD2d 469 [1st Dept 1992]), and it is therefore unnecessary to furnish a quasi-judicial or formal adversarial hearing before revoking a pistol license (Matter of Burke v Colabella, 113 AD2d 794 [2d Dept 1985]).

"Accordingly, no question of substantial evidence is properly raised in a proceeding to review the revocation of a pistol license, and it is not appropriate to transfer the matter to the Appellate Division." (Matter of Shapiro v New York City Police Dept. [License Div.], 157 Misc 2d 28, 32 [Sup Ct, NY County 1993].) Moreover, in the case at bar, there is no substantial evidence question as there is no disagreement on the facts. The only issue is whether H.O. Lowell's interpretation of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act is correct. Thus, this court rejects respondent's argument that this case should be transferred to the Appellate Division for a substantial evidence analysis.

Respondent argues that petitioner's premises resident license did not authorize him to "carry" a handgun in New York, and thus the federal statute does not apply. It states that he used poor judgment in carrying his pistol to Nevada because he never received a definitive answer from it as to whether or not he was permitted to do so. Respondent contends that this error in judgment, combined with his two previous incidents, was a rational reason to deny his license.

As opposed to some other states, New York requires a specific carry license for both the open and concealed carrying of firearms. (See Bach v Pataki, 408 F3d 75 [2d Cir 2005].) On the other hand, New York law permits holders of a premises resident pistol license to transport a handgun in a locked container to and from small arms ranges/shooting clubs and specified hunting locations. (38 RCNY 5-23 [a] [1]-[4].) Thus, although named a "premise" license, it allows for transportation of handguns under some circumstances.

The question is the definition of the word "carry" under the Firearm Owners' Protection Act. 18 USC § 921 unfortunately does not provide a definition. In Muscarello v United States (524 US 125 [1998]), the Supreme Court held that although the word "transport" is a broader category that includes the word "carry," the word "carry" should not be construed so narrowly as to undercut the statute's basic objective. "n the words of its sponsor, [section 926A] 'confers upon all law-abiding citizens a right to transport their firearms in a safe manner in interstate commerce.' " (City of Camden v Beretta U.S.A. Corp., 81 F Supp 2d 541 [D NJ 2000], quoting 131 Cong Rec S9101-05 [July 9, 1985 (statement of Sen. Hatch)].)

18 USC § 927 explicitly states that the Firearm [*5]Owners' Protection Act is intended to coexist with state laws affecting firearms "unless there is a direct and positive conflict between such provision and the law of the State so that the two cannot be reconciled or consistently stand together." Based on the Supreme Court's direction and the intent of the Act's sponsor, this court holds that the definition of "carry" under the Firearm Owners' Protection Act includes the transportation of handguns permitted for premises license holders in New York.

Administrative agencies enjoy broad discretionary power when determining matters they are empowered to decide. This court cannot substitute its own judgment, even if it might have reached a different conclusion on the evidence. (See Matter of Mid-State Mgt. Corp. v New York City Conciliation & Appeals Bd., 112 AD2d 72 [1st Dept 1985], affd 66 NY2d 1032 [1985].)

However, it is also settled law that while a New York handgun license is a privilege and may be revoked at any time, the License Division must act rationally, and free from arbitrariness and capriciousness. (See Matter of Sheriff v Codd, 83 Misc 2d 625 [Special Term, Sup Ct, NY County 1975].) Since this court has concluded that the License Division misinterpreted the definition of "carry" under Firearm Owners' Protection Act, the petition is granted in its entirety.

Accordingly, it hereby is adjudged that the petition is granted; and it further is ordered that respondent's determination to revoke petitioner's premises resident pistol license is annulled and respondent is directed to restore petitioner's license pursuant to Penal Law § 400.00.

So enough already. Or do you want more cases?

WildhastodoeverythingAlaska ™
 
Wild,

Why don't you just hop on a plane and go to each issuing authority in the state of NY to explain the law to them. You obviously understand it better than they do. Those of us in this state, and without the limitless resources to fight years of court battles, are pretty much left at the whim of the state.

Feel free to forward your quotes to those officers at the issuing department who have openly told the thousands of residents that have gone before them that they are pretty much God in this matter.

We all know how LEOs like it when citizens quote case law to them.
 
Why don't you just hop on a plane and go to each issuing authority in the state of NY to explain the law to them.

They know it.

Those of us in this state, and without the limitless resources to fight years of court battles, are pretty much left at the whim of the state.

Do it yourself then...the law is the law and its clear. Plus, doing an Article 78 is easy to do.

Feel free to forward your quotes to those officers at the issuing department who have openly told the thousands of residents that have gone before them that they are pretty much God in this matter.

Thousands? I challenge you to prove that.

We all know how LEOs like it when citizens quote case law to them.

Too bad whether they like it or not. You want to talk about "sheeple"....to me a "sheeple" is a person without the cojones to seek a remedy for an actual wrong in Court.

And are you ready to admit you are wrong yet or just continue this silliness? Arbitrary and capricious is the test.

WildifyoucanargueonthisboardyoucanargueinacourtroomAlaska ™
 
12-34hom said:
From what I've seen and read on this board and others is that people move in and live with each other with out ever really knowing the other person in the relationship.

Don't think that "knowing them" or getting married is the answer. According to my buddies at the courthouse, domestic violence accusations are a standard tactic for gaining advantage among divorce attorneys and the women they represent.
 
From what I've seen and read on this board and others is that people move in and live with each other with out ever really knowing the other person in the relationship.
I was married to the woman for about five years after dating her for five

You never divorce the person you marry

ROs are almost standard divorce practice here
So much so that many do not take them as seriously as they should

After the divorce it switches from DV against the woman to child abuse

My ex made child abuse accusations against me because I "got to spend more quality time with him and was too much of an influence on him and she was left to be the one who had to yell at him and spank him because I wouldn't" her words
This was her excuse for asking for more child support money

The judge told her from the sound of things maybe he should grant me custody
But the boy was still granted a guardian ad litum
 
In a court room you couldn't just jump over to do a quick google search on the definition of capricious
__________________

God forbid there should be some preparation :)

Wildbesidesargumentis1/4thebriefsare3/4justlikeinschoolAlaska TM
 
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