Bayonets? Yes or No?

A few more points for discussion...:rolleyes:

First off, we're talking about using the bayonet for personal defense "fixed" (mounted) on the rifle. Right??? (and, in your home)

IF the bayonet is not mounted on a long arm (rifle or shotgun) and you use it for self defense, then its the same as any "knife" /edged weapon, legally, isn't it??

I cannot imagine a plausible situation where I would be defending myself with a rifle with a bayonet fixed, other than I already had it in my hands in that condition when I was attacked. I seriously doubt that I (or anyone) would take the time to fix the bayonet as they were being attacked.

I suppose that, if the rifle were on display with the bayonet fixed, and it was the closest thing I could grab when an attack started, I might grab and use it, but IF that were the case, (and that's bloody unlikely, mate! ) I wouldn't have to face the dreaded question of "why didn't you just shoot him?", Because A) the rifle on display wouldn't be loaded, and B) it is no longer legal where I live to display a functional firearm, if it is functional, it has to be in secure (locked) "safe storage".

SO, if I were ever in the truly bizarre situation of having to use the bayonet fixed on the rifle, it would be because I couldn't shoot my attacker, and had no other option.
 
It makes much more sense to learn bayonet drills than the tacticool magazine change drills I see guys doing on youtube. Basic bayonet drills work with and without a bayonet for using a rifle effectively as a club.

If you run out of ammo or have a malfunction......
 
It makes much more sense to learn bayonet drills than the tacticool magazine change drills I see guys doing on youtube.
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For a combat infantryman, perhaps, for the rest of the world, not so much.

And modern combat infantrymen are somewhat handicapped because of the design of modern combat rifles.

The long rifles and bayonets of the past give a degree of "stand off" distance the common short modern rifles don't.

When you take shooting out of the picture, reach gives you a definite advantage outdoors, most places. Spears, from shorter thrusting spears up through polearms all the way to pikes have a military advantage, and allow for tactics from the phalanx to pike squares which were very effective in their day.

Move up to the 19th century and through the world wars of the 20th, and the bayoneted rifle was the primary infantry arm of most nations.

Look at the infantry rifles before WWII and they are often long, heavily built, and capable of mounting long bayonets. And, not badly balanced for hand to hand combat, either. Long rifles and long bayonets were not much of a drawback when the majority of infantry traveled by foot. When you don't climb in and out of vehicles often (or at all) a long rifle is not a drawback, and its reach is an asset, generally speaking.

A good percent of the time, the guy with 5 feet of reach on his pigsticker is better armed than the guy with 3 feet of reach on his.
 
Decades ago the South African when there was still Apartheid the SA police fixed bayonets on their FNs and charged the mob. The mob fled and no one got jabbed.

Still, I don't see any practical application but I don't want to be told you can't have that.
 
tangolima said:
This is a common explanation. Life in armed forces is boring. If soldiers are allowed to sharpen bayonets, very soon there will be no bayonets left to be sharpened. The steel will be ground away.
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There is much truth to this statement. I once made the mistake of buying a mil-surp AK bayonet by mail order. What I received was about 75% of what had started out as an AK bayonet.

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Still, I don't see any practical application but I don't want to be told you can't have that.
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Military history is full of practical applications, and there are still practical applications today, though not as widespread or common as they once were.

Civilian history? not so much, although they could be counted as militia equipment.

NO ADULT likes to hear "you can't have that". The people saying that, making those decisions, and worse, sometimes making their will law, are NOT treating people as adults. They are treating us as if we were children who must be told what they can, and cannot do, or have, for their own "safety".

IF they are allowed the power to determine what we can, and cannot have, it is a very small step from there to determining what we can and cannot think, and ALL other aspects of our lives.

I respect their right to their own opinions, and they are free to tell me what I should, or should not do, or believe all day long. When thy go from should to must, and make that a law, they go too far.
 
bayonet use

I saw a photo a while back of bayonet use. The guy was in Alaska, his knock around bear rifle was a M44-7.62x54r carbine. The bayonet was extended, and the rifle stuck in the ground next to him while he fished.
 
The bayonet was essential for accessing the ham and lima beans inside a case of C-Rations. That cardboard was tough and there was the wire wrap!
I've forgotten the names but there was a company or battalion commander during the Korean war who insisted his unit excelled in bayonet proficiency.

I don't recall the details, I think it was a "Must Hold" situation,but sure enough,
out of ammo they held against human wave attacks.
I read an account of the battle and IIRC a Unit Citation. I think the point was,
"Out of ammo? Those poor bastards are going to get stuck!!"

Edit: I looked it up! https://nationalinfantrymuseum.org/a-time-to-remember-milletts-bayonet-attack/

"On February 7, 1951, Millett led his Soldiers from Easy Company, 2D Battalion, 27th Infantry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division atop Hill 180 near Soam-Ni, Korea."

On longer versus shorter rifle/bayonets effectiveness.....Yes,it can be argued.
I'm not an authority but I did fence for a few years.
There is the principle of forte vs foible.

The shorter weapon is far more powerful in the parry. With a cool head and some agility its possible for the shorter weapon to deflect the longer weapon and get inside the pokey point. Beware the butt stroke!
 
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The shorter weapon is far more powerful in the parry.
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Yes, but the shorter weapon also means the other guy's pokey part is closer to you. Given roughly equal positions and skill, the longer reach is an advantage. It is not a guaranteed decisive advantage, but it is an advantage.

Given unequal positions (Or skill) things change.

"Give up Annakin, I have the high ground!" is not just some jedi bravado.

The advantages of the high ground and of reach over your opponent have been known since prehistory.

Despite what you see in movies, tv and theater, real sword fights involve both ends and rarely involve running and jumping all over the set. Actual masters rarely even cross swords and the same applies to a bayonetted rifle. Popular adventure fiction rarely shows real sword or bayonet fighting, its scripted dancing.
 
For a combat infantryman, perhaps, for the rest of the world, not so much.
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No.

We can do a little drill.

5 feet apart facing each other.

My rifle has one in the chamber ready to fire but my muzzle is pointed 45 degrees off from you. It does not matter if I have a rifle, a pistol, or a knife.

Your rifle is locked to the rear and your non-firing hand is on a fresh magazine in your pouch.

When the timer starts you can choose to reload or use your rifle as a weapon without a bayonet.
If you choose to reload, you will die every time.

If you know bayonet drills, even without a bayonet, you have learned the basic moves of using a rifle as a weapon in Hand to Hand combat. You have a very good chance of stopping me before I can turn my muzzle 45 degrees or close the distance with a knife and kill you.
 
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How about we do a different little drill?

5 feet apart facing each other.

Your rifle has one in the chamber ready to fire but my muzzle is pointed 45 degrees off from you. It does not matter if you have a rifle, a pistol, or a knife.

My rifle is locked to the rear and my non-firing hand is on a fresh magazine in my pouch, because I have just emptied it into your chest at point blank range...

When the timer starts you fall down, dead.
Drill over. :rolleyes:
 
Don't forget the steel helmet. You can whack the bad guy with it if everything fails. :)

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
Weapons,like golf clubs, have ideal contexts for their use and effectiveness.

The Romans had he phalanx and the short sword.

The cutlass was preferred in the raw melee of boarding ships.

Muskets and ranks and volley fire favored longer guns and bayonets.

For some reason in WW2 rifles got a bit shorter and bayonets were cut down and reground.

The Zulu Warrior of Rorkes Drift time could fight with his Iklwa stabbing spear pretty well. He would be a tough adversary in the above mentioned 5 ft scenario. The Iklwa spears tended to be under 40 inches in total length.
The Masai lion spears were a little longer ,between 5 and 6 feet.

For some it was a rite of passage to take on a lion with a spear.

That whole style of fighting is a heavy part of the culture and they probably leaned toward what works.

In use,lacking a round in the chamber, a rifle with a bayonet is not so far removed from the stabbing spear. The rifle may be a better bashing club.

Whether you have an 6 foot long spear/rifle bayonet or a 40 inch Iklwa, there will be an effective "length of thrust". Of course,there are variables.

But a weakness of the long weapon is it provides leverage to deflect (parry) it off target . If the parry is delivered with an aggressive closure toward the enemy, you will be inside the useful deployment of the bayonet. Its like tanks and battleships,you can get inside the depression of the guns.

Clinched up belly to belly throat biting range, I imagine a Kabar may be more effective than a 1917 Eddystone with a long bayonet. Back up 10 feet and things change.

Better yet,back up so the A-10 s or 155 s can handle it.

I'm speaking as a "Chairborne". Have a grain of salt on me!

It seems davidsog might know something about a dogfight with guns in a bathroom size space. Scary. No time for rules.
 
Where’s the “like” button for bamaranger’s post?

I’d want one if for nothing else than field cooking over a fire. A lot of soldiers in the American Civil War did that.
 
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