Battle Rifle? Too Much?
- Thread starter amprecon
- Start date
Dunno ..... we spent a whole day on the bayonet course at Ft. Sill in 1985 ..... and the National Guard soldiers in our Training Battalion spent 1/2 a day on Civil Disturbance training , some of which involved bayonets fixed to the rifle. Basic Training has certainly changed quite a bit since then, but "since the 70's......" was not true across the board....
I will also agree that the bayonet is very useful as a tool, too. Opening ammo boxes, MRE's, T-Rats, digging ...... it seems folks guarding prisoners in the sandbox liked them, if only for the psychological impact it had on their charges.... everytime I saw guys guading POW's, they had a blade on their rifle.......
We also spent many hours in the desert playing lawn darts with ours......
The story is true. I was there. Fall 1975, Ft Leonard Wood, MO. BCT (Basic Combat Training)
Now, if you were going to be Infantry...you would likely get more, in AIT. In Basic, we got just what I posted except I left out the very begining lines. He held up the bayonet, and said, "This is the M7 Bayonet! Take a good look at it! You will not use it!" and after a few seconds, flipped it to stick in the ground.
Notice that while the Army has really slacked off on bayonet training (compared to WWI, WWII, Korea era), they still have, and issue bayonets. I think the last bayonet charge was in 1944, but the bayonet still gets used every day by GIs, for multitudes of uses, other than stabbing people at rifle's length.
And thats another thing about battle rifles. They are bigger than the carbines. A bit more awkward for mounting and dismounting vheicles, or inside houses, but a bit more mass, and (I think) ruggedness if used as an impact weapon.
Back in the day, we had our doubts about the "mighty mattel" holding up to a fight, and we knew what a wood stocked rifle would take.
Turns out that they held up better than we expected, but its still easier to break plastic and aluminium than steel and heavy wood.
We train, and plan so our guys won't have to go hand to hand with the enemy. But the enemy has plans of his own. Thats why we call them the enemy. A good battle rifle not only delivers "out there", but also delivers when as close as it gets, if you do. The drawback? "Heavy!" (as far as my modest research is concered, troops have been complaining about things being "heavy" since troops first started carrying things. Don't think its going to change soon
), long, awkward....There's no free lunch in the real world. If you want/need "this" you put up with/pay "that".
A little off topic but bayonet work is as much mental conditioning as physical, skill, muscle memory training. The M7 was probably a better bayonet. The M9 a better prybar and trowel.
The new M10 is the all-purpose bowie knife bayonet the M9 was meant to be -- decent edge-holding steel but still weighs a ton. If you want what I consider the best fighting knife bayonet you have to handle the 8" USMC OKC S3 -- basicaly a Ka-bar bayo. The Army has a special tanto-bladed version that I think will punch thru an anvil. The latter three are higher quality knives, an important tool, to accompany and work with those rifles.
On a final note, people are psychologically more afraid of sharp pointy things at close quarters than guns...
The new M10 is the all-purpose bowie knife bayonet the M9 was meant to be -- decent edge-holding steel but still weighs a ton. If you want what I consider the best fighting knife bayonet you have to handle the 8" USMC OKC S3 -- basicaly a Ka-bar bayo. The Army has a special tanto-bladed version that I think will punch thru an anvil. The latter three are higher quality knives, an important tool, to accompany and work with those rifles.
On a final note, people are psychologically more afraid of sharp pointy things at close quarters than guns...
Crazy Carl
New member
We got plenty o' bayonet training at Benning, in '88. Too many 'Nam vets as Drill Sgts.... 'N those damn Commies were still the enemy.
Who knew?
Who knew?
yournodaisy
New member
+1 for the scar 17s
An intermediate-caliber rifle is probably better when used in a squad-sized group or better. The slight disadvantage it has in stopping power and range, compared to a battle rifle, is largely mitigated by multiple shooters and volume of fire.
Remember, in the Soviet-Afghan war, some Afghanis were able to conduct successful ambushes by out-ranging their opponents, then fleeing before the Soviets could bring them into their effective range.
In a Designated Marksman/Sniper role, .308+ caliber rifles have certain advantages. For squad-based infantry, the 5.56/5.45 is probably a better choice.
Remember, in the Soviet-Afghan war, some Afghanis were able to conduct successful ambushes by out-ranging their opponents, then fleeing before the Soviets could bring them into their effective range.
In a Designated Marksman/Sniper role, .308+ caliber rifles have certain advantages. For squad-based infantry, the 5.56/5.45 is probably a better choice.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Since Vietnam the wars the US has fought in have been mostly in cities and Jungles b/c our technology and industrial might(million dollar tomahawks by the score) mauls anything in the open with no human cost. Of course, plenty of longer range fire fights seem to be happening in Afghanistan.
Other countries have had some sizeable engagements with infantry supporting armor in the open(Iraq invading Kuwait, Israel on several occasions).
Other countries have had some sizeable engagements with infantry supporting armor in the open(Iraq invading Kuwait, Israel on several occasions).
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