BATF Slime Caves in Arizona FFL Case
- Thread starter RickD
- Start date
toybox99615
New member
WOW
this is such a informative thread. Full of nothing but facts about the case.
Me think there is a leveling of the manure spreader taking place.
I don't have any love for the BATF. Nor do most of us here. But this particular presentation of an incident in 2000 seems a bit lacking in credibility factors. But everyone knows for sure that anyone who sells guns under a FFL constantly has daily harassments by the BATF. Or at least that is how is come across on many of the postings. I guess the few shops I deal with must be given special exceptions for being harassed as none of them has ever seen such examinations or harassments as described in this thread. I doubt the owners I know would sit quietly back and not scream if it was happening to them.
Meanwhile pointing to the Clinton administration for being responsible for the BATF budget for the last seven years under the Bush Presidency seems rather ridiculous. Consider the Republican president approval the budgets passed by the Republican Congress from 2000 through 2006. How exactly did Clinton make that happen?
Maybe the mods will make a new catagory for this line os posting. They can call it the Under the Tinfoil Section!
this is such a informative thread. Full of nothing but facts about the case.
Me think there is a leveling of the manure spreader taking place.
I don't have any love for the BATF. Nor do most of us here. But this particular presentation of an incident in 2000 seems a bit lacking in credibility factors. But everyone knows for sure that anyone who sells guns under a FFL constantly has daily harassments by the BATF. Or at least that is how is come across on many of the postings. I guess the few shops I deal with must be given special exceptions for being harassed as none of them has ever seen such examinations or harassments as described in this thread. I doubt the owners I know would sit quietly back and not scream if it was happening to them.
Meanwhile pointing to the Clinton administration for being responsible for the BATF budget for the last seven years under the Bush Presidency seems rather ridiculous. Consider the Republican president approval the budgets passed by the Republican Congress from 2000 through 2006. How exactly did Clinton make that happen?
Maybe the mods will make a new catagory for this line os posting. They can call it the Under the Tinfoil Section!
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
Well, the ATF did drop all charges, and so it looks like the initial search and seizure did indeed put this poor man out of business where there was no justification at all.
It's simply not right that this happened to this innocent man, it's an injustice, and profoundly unAmerican.
toybox99615
New member
not enough information
CoolHand I'd say there is not enough information in a story from 2002 that concerned an incident in 2000. Neither of us were present to see this ourselves. And the reporter is placing a lot of "Jackboot thug" action of the BATF "thieves" into the story. It would seem easy enough to find related stories regarding the incident if you wanted to illustrate the case being dropped by ATF.
BUT here is how I sum up the story:
some 30 plus BATF agents with other local authorities confiscated the firearms in this guys store without a warrant. Then they intentionally damage the weapons involved. After which an agent showed up at a range with one of the confiscated firearms and lets everyone at the range know where it its from. You will also notice no specific list as to what BATF confiscated.
"They were throwing vintage collector's items in mint condition through the air and into a trashcan 10 feet away," said Jerry Michel, licensed gun dealer, after being assaulted and pillaged by the ATF. "I felt like I was going to throw up." http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2346 A claim by Mitchel that I'd like to see supported by anyone else who was present at the time.
Just for grins I did a search for Jerry's Guns & Ammo d.b.a. Specialty Firearms,. While the net is not the best way to determine everything I found only two references to the place. Federal cases usualy show up some place on the web. Both references I found were related to the OP. I find it diffcullt but not impossabale that this story/case does not show up on the web any place else.
I would not hesitate to award this guy damages for everything he can prove in court. But I would not give him anything but a roll of tinfoil for the published story
CoolHand I'd say there is not enough information in a story from 2002 that concerned an incident in 2000. Neither of us were present to see this ourselves. And the reporter is placing a lot of "Jackboot thug" action of the BATF "thieves" into the story. It would seem easy enough to find related stories regarding the incident if you wanted to illustrate the case being dropped by ATF.
BUT here is how I sum up the story:
some 30 plus BATF agents with other local authorities confiscated the firearms in this guys store without a warrant. Then they intentionally damage the weapons involved. After which an agent showed up at a range with one of the confiscated firearms and lets everyone at the range know where it its from. You will also notice no specific list as to what BATF confiscated.
"They were throwing vintage collector's items in mint condition through the air and into a trashcan 10 feet away," said Jerry Michel, licensed gun dealer, after being assaulted and pillaged by the ATF. "I felt like I was going to throw up." http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=2346 A claim by Mitchel that I'd like to see supported by anyone else who was present at the time.
Just for grins I did a search for Jerry's Guns & Ammo d.b.a. Specialty Firearms,. While the net is not the best way to determine everything I found only two references to the place. Federal cases usualy show up some place on the web. Both references I found were related to the OP. I find it diffcullt but not impossabale that this story/case does not show up on the web any place else.
I would not hesitate to award this guy damages for everything he can prove in court. But I would not give him anything but a roll of tinfoil for the published story
cool hand luke 22:36
New member
I agree on the lack of information, that's why I revived the thread. I wanted to see if anyone on TFL had any information about how the civil case turned out.
This whole matter came up because it is referenced from the Red's Trading Post webpage about their problems with a similar ATF raid and attempt to shut that business down due to paperwork violations.
http://www.redstradingpost.com/atf.php
And a link to the page with this story from 2002:
http://www.atfabuse.com/enter.html
dogtown tom
New member
ATF was only involved at Mt. Carmel for the initial raid.
Once ATF agents were fired on the FBI took over the negotiations and the final raid.