Barrier Busters for civillian CC?

[Edward429451]

kill or be killed situations get crazy really fast. It just seems to me that shooting somebody who is hiding behind cover probably isn't always the best idea.

Of course it's not a good idea, but you're not in the best circumstance and in a life and death struggle. Do you want to live? Want your family to live? We can assume an intruder in the house here. If chess has taught me anything, it's that being aggressive is what wins. The best defense is a good offense. To turn the tables on an intruder and carry the fight to him (through the wall) is my job at the moment. To give him something else to think about beside me and my family. If he took cover, he's prolly armed and ready to fight. If he wants to live, let him turn and run out of the house (or not break in in the 1st place) instead of taking cover.

If he's inside the house, he's already demonstrated violence to gain entry. It's reasonable to assume he will continue to be violent if allowed to gain control of household members. That he takes cover makes it probable that he is willing to fight. All bets are off at this point until the threat is neutralized.

Your comment about being a super hero or whatever shows you have quite the imagination. I wont touch that one because I don't think like that.

 

[JohnKSa]

...I'm certainly not a legal expert, but IMO shooting somebody through a door or a wall is absolutely asking for all kinds of trouble.

As with any situation, it depends on the circumstances. If the attacker seeks concealment when he could have clearly taken the option to flee instead that is one set of circumstances that would make shooting through concealment a very wise tactic.

In my house, my fallback defensive position offers an attacker ample opportunity to flee in relative safety. Once he moves any significant distance back away from the corner he will have to round to approach me, he will be able to leave in safety and I will most certainly allow him to do so. If, instead, he chooses to stay close to the corner from which he can make an attempt to rush my position, I will do my best to make that location very unpleasant, even if it means firing through the wall.

In a similar manner, there is nothing questionable about firing through concealment at an attacker who is using that concealment to protect himself while he fires at you.

However, there are certainly other sets of circumstances that would make it unwise to shoot through cover.

It just seems to me that shooting somebody who is hiding behind cover probably isn't always the best idea.

It is quite safe to say that "shooting somebody" "isn't always the best idea".

However, we're not talking about what is "always the best idea" as regards shooting someone behind cover/concealment. We're discussing whether it is EVER a good idea to shoot someone behind cover/concealment. Clearly it is the best idea under certain circumstances and clearly it isn't under other circumstances.

 

[KyJim]

Couldn't this be misconstrued by a lousy lawyer in the same way? "My client was attempting to hide and surrender when he was shot through the door." I'm certainly not a legal expert, but IMO shooting somebody through a door or a wall is absolutely asking for all kinds of trouble.

+1 to what JohnKSa said about this. If the situation is dangerous enough for me to be shooting at someone, it is, by definition, dire enough for me to shoot through a barrier (knowing what/who the target is). As the old saying goes, "I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

I also agree with those who point out that a good modern JHP is all you need. No reason to buy special "armor piercing" ammo which is illegal in some states.

 

[481]

I agree, Jim.

If the situation is dangerous enough for me to be shooting at someone, it is, by definition, dire enough for me to shoot through a barrier.

Definitely one of the most elegant expressions of the philosophy I've ever seen.

Kudos, Jim.

 

[tipoc]

On the topic of most rounds penetrating walls and such a shooting took place out my this last Thurs. Two shooters stood outside a home and shot into the house just before 1 am. Two different caliber handguns were used. The rounds penetrated through the exterior wall of the house, through the interior sheetrock, across the room and through another interior wall, where one bullet struck an 11 year old boy sleeping in his bed.

At least one of the rounds that penetrated the exterior and interior walls was a jhp. An officer I know has told me that 9mm and 40 S&W bullets but no statement on the caliber has been released yet.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/09/20/11-year-old-shot-in-oakland/

http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Family-Wounded-Oakland-boy-doing-well-3884759.php

This type of shooting happens around here a few times a year. Last year an 8 year old was hit by a stray round from a shoot out across the street. The 9mm jhp passed through an exterior door and an interior wall before striking a boy at piano practice.

The same year a woman was shot when the bullet passed through an exterior wall of her apartment building, an interior wall and hit her in the head as she lay sleeping.

None of this ammo was anything "fancy" store bought off the shelf stuff.

tipoc

 

[Tactical Jackalope]

Incident here where two of our officers were doing a sting operation in front of a Best Buy, when the suspects ran from them in their vehicle almost hitting the officers, they opened fire at the back window.

Let's just say they went right through and they two inside weren't so lucky.

I tried googling the incident but it's not coming up.

It happened on Kendall drive. In Miami-Dade County. At the Best Buy off of 122nd street. Look it up, if you can find it. Officers? Needed, it's a must. Civilians? Wouldn't hurt to have, but I don't think it's needed for civilian CC.

 

[JohnKSa]

None of this ammo was anything "fancy" store bought off the shelf stuff.

It's kind of a paradox. Inexpensive target/practice ammo will probably offer the best barrier penetration available in a given caliber. The problem is that people sometimes want barrier penetration and target penetration and expansion. That's not something you get in a box of target/practice ammo. Even good quality defensive ammo can have problems reliably penetrating barriers and still expanding.

 

[Edward429451]

And so the search for the proverbial magic bullet begins. One that does it all. If I can't have a magic bullet, then I'd rather be able to blow a hole clean through it for maximum tissue disruption over the expansion with lack of full penetration.

All things considered, penetration is your friend.

 

[JohnKSa]

The discussion was to answer the question of whether or not citizen self-defense could be benefited by the new barrier buster ammo. I think it can.

The next question is whether or not the benefit is worth the cost. That's a much harder question. People who tend to hope that their purchases will save them in a jam will probably feel one way while folks who lean toward the belief that it's a lot more about skill and practice will likely feel differently.

The Critical Duty ammo is expensive, it's loaded to +P levels, in my carry caliber it comes in an unusual bullet weight which means it almost certainly won't shoot to the same point of aim as my practice ammo and my guns which are sighted for my target ammo and my current carry load.

All that means that I won't be switching to Critical Duty any time soon. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't understand and appreciate the value of the performance level that Critical Duty provides and what an advantage that might be in certain situations.

Is it magic? Nope. Is the benefit enough to make the switch? Not for me--others might have a different take based on their situation. Will using it make a difference in most common scenarios? Not a bit. But in some situations it could make a significant difference. It's always a tradeoff.

 

[tipoc]

None of this ammo was anything "fancy" store bought off the shelf stuff.

When I wrote the above I should have been clearer. The ammo used in at least one case I mentioned, the most recent, was fairly typical JHP ammo. It was noted that it plugged with sheet rock and so acted like ball ammo. It was also, as far as I know not "Critical Duty" or any brand sold as "Barrier Penetrating" jhp. But in all cases it did penetrate several barriers and into people.

In other words many brands of ammo sold today as expanding jhp ammo will readily penetrate through several barriers and more than many shooters think.

Critical Duty and similar ammo may do so more readily and more consistently than some. But do not be misled into thinking that standard jhp won't penetrate walls, auto glass, auto or truck bodies, etc. It will and does so often.

tipoc