Barrel leading in 44mag

"Normally", leading in the beginning of the barrel indicated undersize bullets. "Push through", "tap through" aren't measurements and can mean different things to different people. Measure. Measure all the cylinder throats (pin/plug gauges are best, but you can run an oversized slug through the throats and measure them with mics.). Slug the barrel. The cylinder throats must be larger than the groove diameter. When slugging you can check for restrictions. Without facts, real measurements, it's all a WAG...:confused:
 
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This is all great advice - thank you.

The gun is brand new, so I'll address barrel/throat/cone issues last if they exist.

The cone is rough imho.

I can insert a .4290" (measured) bullet into a throat with firm thumb pressure and a bit of wiggling to get it started. At that point it's stuck and i have to tap it back out.

I'll see if I can slug the bore (melt fishing weights in a 44mag brass?).

The lube is what's on the commercial bullets. If it was a lube issue, I suspect I'd see lead all the way down the barrel? The muzzle end is squeaky clean.

Next steps include:

Pushing the .430" 18bhn bullet to 1200fps using Aliant 2400 (slower powder).
Buy .429" 18bhn (castWC, from xtreme bullets)
Try Lee Liquid Alox
Try slugging throats and/or bore
?
?
?
Send revolver back to S&W


thanks again for all the great advice! I remember having leading problems with my new ruger. It's magic combo was .431" bhn22 at 1500fps. It's virtually lead free. I could thumb-force in a .431" cast bullet on that, and then have to tap it out.


--edfardos
 
If it does not go all the way down the barrel it could be streaks of lube. Poor fit tends to leave lead down the whole way, it is worst close to the start. Lube breakdown tends leave lead at the muzzle end. Try using a few degreaser soaked patches before brushing. Then a damp patch to see if it is streaks of lead. I once thought it was lead in one of guns only to find out it was lube.
 
This might help. It goes over what may be causing your leading issue based on where the leading is.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htm

Also, your bullet's hardness might be causing it too. A BHN of 22 or even 18 is not necessary even in hot 44 mag loads. Elmer Keith's favorite lead alloy had a BHN of 11. He used that alloy to help develop the 44 mag. In my opinion, a BHN of 15 is all you need for everything but super high velocity rounds. Try a softer bullet and see if that helps.

Here's an article about lead alloys and hardness.

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/castbullet.htm

I highly recommend anyone who's interested in lead bullets to look into Glen E. Fryxell's writing. He's a cast bullet guru, and his book is free for anyone to read.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
 
It's lead for sure (not lube).. dull/grey pile of dust on white paper in the sun, very gritty.

I read the Fryxell book twice -- great reference! According to that, I either have a barrel restriction at the threads or I'm pushing a hard bullet too slowly. (lead in the first inch of the barrel, and streaks that follow the rifling, respectively).

I made some faster loads for the .430/18bhn. I'll do the same speeds on a .431"/22bhn for contrast. I'll try these then take the next steps on the list we've created here.

best,
-edfardos
 
I am not a fan of hard cast. Most of the cast bullets that I make range 10 to 12 BHN for the 44 Mag.

I size the cylinder throats to 0.4315" and size the bullets to 0.431" and shoot thru barrels that measure 0.429"

I have chrono'ed velocities to 1300 with a 260 gr cast bullet. I do not need to go faster than that.

If I choose to cast and shoot hollow point bullets, I normally cast at BHN 10 and gas check the bullet. This allows the bullet to expand like a hollow point should without breaking up because it is too brittle.

If these bullets are cast too hard, they perform as a FMJ would with absolutely no expansion.
 
I, too shoot bullets in the 10-12 BHN range to magnum velocities with good accuracy and no leading. Bullet fit is King when shooting lead. If your revolver has tight throats it won't matter how hard your bullet is or how hard you push it, you will have blow by and there will be leading.

I have been lucky, I guess, the only revolver I have had to do any thing to to get it to shoot lead is a SBH Hunter in 44 mag. It had three throats that were .429. I tried hard LsaerCast on down to Hornady swaged bullets. I pushed them hard and soft. I always got leading. After reaming throats to .4315 I can shoot my home cast .431 from about 850 fps on up to 1350 fps with no leading. Groove was .430 with a very slight restriction at the threads

If you are serious about shooting lead you need to measure your bore and throats with gauge pins and go from there. Ream throats 15/10,000 larger than groove and shoot a bullet 1/1,000 larger than groove.
 
I am by and far any sort of expert on the issue, but I do shoot plenty of my own cast loads up into the 1500+ range with alloy that usually runs no harder than a 12-14BHN and the latter is used only in my 454.

The test your doing may or may not give you the proper results your looking for. I would highly recommend checking around to find a good gunsmith with a set of pin gauges to check your cylinders with, and slugging your barrel with a pure (or as close to it) lead fishing weight. Look for the egg sinkers they usually work the best. When I did mine, I slathered a patch down with some Imperial Case Lube and then shoved it through the bore first. It only left a light coat with the tight fit I had but it allowed the sinker to slide down the barrel very smoothly. I also rubbed the sinker down with it as well.

Do not use a wooden dowel to drive it through. Go to Lowes, or a similar type store and pick up a brass rod or bolt that is long enough to drive the sinker through. I used a piece of 3/8" when I did my revolvers and it worked out great. You might get a little ring on the muzzle as it goes in but it will still go through. If you don't feel up to it the smith should be able to do it really quick and probably not charge much to do it either.

Those measurements as mentioned above are key to making sure everything is proper with the revolver. Once you know it is, you will find it will be MUCH easier to find nice accurate loads within most any range of the data with just about any brand bullet as long as it is really close or dead on your dimensions.

Good luck and please post up your findings which ever way you go.
 
Bear Tooth Bullets, "Technical Guide" by Marshall Stanton

^^^^^^ mostly all what Mike said.

by dumb chance or a moment of precognitive genius, I ordered Bear Tooth Bullets, "Technical Guide" by Marshall Stanton. Besides a whole lot of other great information about successfully shooting cast bullets, his directions for slugging barrels is very insightful. He offers recommendations which at first seem counter-intuitive, (like driving your oval egg sinkers with a really heavy hammer rather that a light hammer). He gives directions for putting a pilot point on the end of your driving rod to ensure it doesn't get off center and damage the barrel. Also directions for slugging just the muzzle of a revolver. Also specific dimensional information for cylinder throats to barrel. And everything you need to know about fire lapping. It's the best 15 bucks I ever spent.

https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm under MISC click on "Book"
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tips/index.htm tech tip about slugging with oval sinkers
 
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a
ll great advice - thank you.

The gun is brand new, so I'll address barrel/throat/cone issues last if they exist.

The cone is rough imho.

I can insert a .4290" (measured) bullet into a throat with firm thumb pressure and a bit of wiggling to get it started. At that point it's stuck and i have to tap it back out.

I'll see if I can slug the bore (melt fishing weights in a 44mag brass?).

The lube is what's on the commercial bullets. If it was a lube issue, I suspect I'd see lead all the way down the barrel? The muzzle end is squeaky clean.

Next steps include:

Pushing the .430" 18bhn bullet to 1200fps using Aliant 2400 (slower powder).
Buy .429" 18bhn (castWC, from xtreme bullets)
Try Lee Liquid Alox
Try slugging throats and/or bore
?
?
?
Send revolver back to S&W


thanks again for all the great advice! I remember having leading problems with my new ruger. It's magic combo was .431" bhn22 at 1500fps. It's virtually lead free. I could thumb-force in a .431" cast bullet on that, and then have to tap it out.


--edfardos
Click to expand...
I'd say, with that info., your throats are too small. If you have .429" throats, and a .429" groove diameter, there's a very good chance you'll get leading. I would start with measuring the cylinder throats. If your throats are too small, none of the other stuff will help. If you have .429" throats, every cast bullet no matter how big, fired in your gun will come out of the cylinder at .429", no matter how hard...
 
wow - you guys are great. I don't have tools to do precise measurements.
With your advice and $150 investment in different bullets/powders, I have to give up and let S&W look at it (plus it shoots left, has other fitment problems, etc). Are there any buzzwords I could use to help make my case before Smith And Wesson Customer Service? I'm worried they'll say it shoots fine with Jacketed rounds, and leave it at that -- basically telling me to stick with Ruger from now on.

I tried .429" 18bhn (smaller) bullets today from 940 to 1200fps. Leading was considerably less, but obvious after the first shot at the beginning of the grooves/lands. The forcing cone seems very short and the transition to lands/grooves seems very sharp, as if they're shaving rather than swaging. After six shots, the lead had extended half way down the 4" barrel -- so no change really.

I'll keep this thread updated for posterity, including any new load data.

thanks again!

-edfardos
 
Some guns don't work. I had a .45 Colt Blackhawk that leaded , and was not accurate. The bbl was .451 and the cylinder throats were .454, didn't work never will. I also had a S&W 24. Big throats, .429 bbl, it didn't work either. You can try sending it to S&W on warranty but experience tells me you may as well get rid of it and try another gun.
Sorry for your bad luck.
 
I have a Taurus 92 that will not shoot lead bullets without leading no matter what you do. Some guns are just like that.
 
Thanks again guys. For $900 otd, I'll lean on S&W customer support. The model 69 is a fine firearm otherwise. The .429 bullets might have to be okay, and I'll just accept that this S&W leads and my ruger doesnt. At least I know I talked to the experts here and gave the manufacturer every opportunity to make it function like my Ruger.

Hopefully more info in two weeks!

Edfardos
 
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