Ballistics From A Newbie's Perspective

[Tokarev Czar]

Velocity vs. bullet weight

This is a very common debate. In short, training with your defensive firearm of choice is the most important thing. However, one of the only rounds other than the 5.7 that reaches "real" rifle velocities is the 7.62x25mm. The Mag Safe 52 grain moves at 2,120 ft per second and delivers 518 lbs. per ft. of kinetic energy. That is quite a Wallop!

Interesting article on the subject:

http://tokarevczar.hubpages.com/hub/Tokarev-762x25mm-vs-m1911-45-ACP-Velocity-or-Bullet-Mass

 

[RC20]

While I admire your analysis, the one thing that is missing is the real world statistics.

Keep in mind the only one shot stopper out thee is a 120mm round from an Abraham's tank! Yea, maybe 20mm, but people have been hit with 50 caliber and kept functioning. Basically it means that there is no guarantee of a one shot stop with anything (and or until the person dies they can keep trying to kill you)

Basically, once modern self defense ammunition became available, the 9mm has moved up to be as lethal as the 357 sig, the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP.

I have done extensive reading not on gelatin, or velocity or ft lbs of energy, but on what actually resutls when people start shooting.

Real world shooting says 9mm is equally as effective as an7y of the other calibers when used modern ammunition (hollow points self defense type, like Golden Saber, Hornady XTP etc).

Usually it take multiple hits to stop someone.

Now, I cannot say that 9mm is as good because all the details make no difference in penetrating, expansion and all that, or if its the fact that you can be more accurate and your follow up shot its more effective while the others go off target (statical average not each fight).

What I can say is there is zero end result in gun fights when you take them as a whole between 9mm and the other calibers. Zero.

So, I will take 9mm. It carries more, it has less recoil, it cost less to shoot and therefore practice.

One thing to consider. Statistic are average. So they include the lousy gun handlers, those that do not practice at all and those who do.

When I was riding my motorcycle, I always ran with a headlight on bright, I wore the best gear I could guy, I did not ride in town much, I was always stone sober and I paid strict attention.

In other words, you can leverage your individual odds by taking all the factors under YOUR control and changing YOUR odds though melding them into 10s of thousand you will not see it.

I feel the same way about the 9mm. I practice a lot (love to target shoot). I practice DA with SA, I do rapid fire as well as target shooting. I use the laser and the iron sights. I think about and plan my home defense situation and where and how I will fight int he house if I have to.

Like the cycle, there are situations that nothing was going to save me as things can alighn such that you are simply toast.

Same with a gun fight. You do the best you can to make sure the factors that change the odds in your favor have been done and the rest is up to fate.

 

[Crow Hunter]

If you can shoot just as fast and accurately with the HK 45 as you can with the PPQ, go with the HK.

If you can afford the practice time and the ammo to stay proficient with the .45. Bigger is always better.

If, however, you can get more hits in the vitals on target quicker with the 9mm than you can the .45 in the same time period, go with the 9mm.

Now this is assuming that you are buying for defensive purposes. If you are doing something else with it, other factors might apply.

 

[iamdb]

I drew a little picture that should help end the "which is a better caliber." Please keep in mind my MS Paint skills leave a lot to be desired. But basically anything in red is equal across all service calibers. Blue designates a possible large caliber advantage. Key word is possible and not probably or will. Anything in white will be relatively equal across all service calibers. Service calibers in service length weapons all penetrate flesh and thin bone about the same. They all equally and reliably expand past .65" with the best defensive ammo available.

This is the conclusion I came up with from my training and experience in hunting. Please note I have never shot a human before so of course result vary. But should help new people understand the lack of difference in calibers. The biggest difference in calibers come into play with barrier penetration and follow up shot accuracy/speed *this is for straight on shooting. Things change when body angles change

 

[Sgt127]

In the real world, I don't think it matters a hill of beans. Pick a decent caliber, choose a self defense round from one of the big ammo companies and shoot it alot until you are good with it.

The bullet that shows spectacular expansion? Might have to go through a leather jacket and get plugged up.

The one that penetrates the best? May not expand at all.

Seriously, in 28 years of seeing people get shot, with every caliber, there are absolutly no absolutes. A pathetic little .25 in the head or a .22 LR in the aeorta, will shut someone right off.

Mutiple 9mm's and he runs off.

.45 ball through both legs, guy ran, jumped over a 7 ft stockade fence, decided he was hurt, walked back, jumped back over the fence, sat on the vurb waiting fo us.

.38 special, bounced off a windshiled. .38 Special in the chest, dead.

One .40 Corbon through a windshield, a fragment entered the bad guys chest, killed him.

A .40 Corbon through a windshield, entered the guys face, spit the bullet out as he was being arrested (while fighting)

I suppose if it makes you feel better, a bigger bullet sure looks like it should work better. I carried a Govt model for years, so I can't disagree. What I have seen in the real world, all the statistics and evidence go out the window.

 

[arentol]

I would agree that there isn't a major difference between any semi-auto round from 9mm to .45acp in terms of overall effectiveness. Chances are very good that if one will do the trick so will another.

However, all else being equal, when my life is on the line I don't care how minor the difference is I want the one that gives the greatest relative chance of stopping an attacker.

While 9mm may be great, .40 S&W and 45acp are better, and 10mm is even better still. So even if 10mm is only 5% more likely to stop someone in the first two hits than 9mm, that is good enough for me to carry 10mm whenever reasonably possible.

The relative difference may be minor, but if that difference makes a difference then it is entirely worth it.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

In layman's terms, though, are the understandings I laid out more or less correct? In other words, will a .45 experience more drop than a 9mm? Will a 9mm penetrate protection better?

In general, any bullet that leaves the muzzle faster will shoot flatter.

But that's a VERY general statement. It is profoundly affected by how well the bullet retains it's velocity. There's a term for that, too: "Ballistic Coefficient." A skinny, slippery bullet shape (such as, for example, a 77-grain boattail .233 bullet) will decelerate a lot less on the way downrange than a .45 caliber wadcutter bullet. And, if you look at bullet makers' web sites, you'll see that even within one caliber there are different BCs depending on the bullet profile.

Naturally, this same factor also affects downrange energy. Energy is a product of bullet mass times velocity squared. So a nice, slippery shape will retain more energy downrange than one that acts like it pops a drag chute as soon as it exits the muzzle.