You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
BAD situation today
- Thread starter Sir William
- Start date
confused?
SIR WILLIAM, I am confused here, you should be telling us how you took control of the situation, after all this where just 5 restless kids and you claim on another post here that when you where on that elite team that served the "AVON" warrants at 5 am, obiously to very dangerous felons, you carried on you 7 handguns!!!
Why in the world would 5 loud teenagers be allowed to walk out scott free when someone with your background was there to put them in their place?
I ask you again, are you the same SIR WILLIAM that got expelled minutes into your first post at another forum for asking if your 22 revolver was the right weapon for your favorite pastime, shooting at cars on the freeway?
SIR WILLIAM, I am confused here, you should be telling us how you took control of the situation, after all this where just 5 restless kids and you claim on another post here that when you where on that elite team that served the "AVON" warrants at 5 am, obiously to very dangerous felons, you carried on you 7 handguns!!!
Why in the world would 5 loud teenagers be allowed to walk out scott free when someone with your background was there to put them in their place?
I ask you again, are you the same SIR WILLIAM that got expelled minutes into your first post at another forum for asking if your 22 revolver was the right weapon for your favorite pastime, shooting at cars on the freeway?
Sir William
New member
bruchi, I have 0 idea of what you are talking about. I am not the party you refer to as being banned. Not me. Duty and honour are one thing but, facing down five out of control juveniles is stupidity.
kennybs plbg
New member
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.
People minding there own business and not wanting to get involved is the reason they were there to begin with. When do people start getting involved when they become teens and are set in their ways with real guns, maybe after they kill someone. Grownups (adults) in society are teachers of youth, what have you taught them with your actions. You may live in todays PC world, but I chose not too. For the last 25 years my wife has been telling me you can't do things like that anymore, my response has always been the he!! I can't watch me. Yes I've been there and done that, messages have been sent many times over the years. Most have come back full circle with friendship and respect going both ways. Isn't this the way its suppose to be.
My last thought on the subject is to even consider using a firearm at that time is shear stupidity and you probably shouldn't even be carrying to begin with.
kenny b
People minding there own business and not wanting to get involved is the reason they were there to begin with. When do people start getting involved when they become teens and are set in their ways with real guns, maybe after they kill someone. Grownups (adults) in society are teachers of youth, what have you taught them with your actions. You may live in todays PC world, but I chose not too. For the last 25 years my wife has been telling me you can't do things like that anymore, my response has always been the he!! I can't watch me. Yes I've been there and done that, messages have been sent many times over the years. Most have come back full circle with friendship and respect going both ways. Isn't this the way its suppose to be.
My last thought on the subject is to even consider using a firearm at that time is shear stupidity and you probably shouldn't even be carrying to begin with.
kenny b
Under those circumstances, it sounds like you reacted properly. No weapon was seen, so deadly force was NOT one of your options.
As someone else pointed out, it is entirely possible that one of the employees had already called the local police. The off-duty cook probably called the owner just to cover his rear-side.
I often took my mom out for meals when she was in her 80's, living alone, and in need of getting out of the house for awhile. Don't stop doing that just because you had one negative situation!
My mom passed away when she was 89 years old. She had been on her own for over 6 years, for my dad passed on when he was 82. One of the best times I had with my dad was when he was 79, and I took him out for what turned out to be his last shooting trip. The "old man" could still hit what he aimed at, and I was really proud of him! I had great parents and miss them a lot!
As someone else pointed out, it is entirely possible that one of the employees had already called the local police. The off-duty cook probably called the owner just to cover his rear-side.
I often took my mom out for meals when she was in her 80's, living alone, and in need of getting out of the house for awhile. Don't stop doing that just because you had one negative situation!
My mom passed away when she was 89 years old. She had been on her own for over 6 years, for my dad passed on when he was 82. One of the best times I had with my dad was when he was 79, and I took him out for what turned out to be his last shooting trip. The "old man" could still hit what he aimed at, and I was really proud of him! I had great parents and miss them a lot!
At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants? At least you would have been ready had the kid actually pulled a gun. Chances are that anyone present was watching the kid, not you. The kid certainly wasn't watchng you. And you don't have to display your piece. Just pull it enough to clear your holster.
Obviously, it depends on where you are in the place. If you're standing in line, putting your hand on the grip (as you said you did) is probably the most you can do without drawing attention to yourself or making a bad situation worse. But it seems like you were seated and possibly in an area where your draw could go unseen.
As for shielding your mother, given that she's 80, sounds like doing so might have injured her worse than the immediate situation called for.
As for shooting a "child," anyone who is trying to kill you is not your friend, regardless of age or acquaintance.
Obviously, it depends on where you are in the place. If you're standing in line, putting your hand on the grip (as you said you did) is probably the most you can do without drawing attention to yourself or making a bad situation worse. But it seems like you were seated and possibly in an area where your draw could go unseen.
As for shielding your mother, given that she's 80, sounds like doing so might have injured her worse than the immediate situation called for.
As for shooting a "child," anyone who is trying to kill you is not your friend, regardless of age or acquaintance.
not the guy after all
Good you are not the person I refer to, that one seemed to be some teenager with time to waste, stories to yarn, still seeing your "background" serving "AVON" warrants, I can't get your lack of reaction and even more your need to relate the incident here if it was not worth reacting to?
Good you are not the person I refer to, that one seemed to be some teenager with time to waste, stories to yarn, still seeing your "background" serving "AVON" warrants, I can't get your lack of reaction and even more your need to relate the incident here if it was not worth reacting to?
TexasSIGMan
New member
At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants?
If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.
(This is why I don't carry IWB myself, but most people seem to).
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.
I don't understand the comment about not wanting to kill a child. 1st, a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as a 45 year old could. 2nd, It has nothing to do with killing someone else, it's about saving you and your mother's life.
Ah, welcome to 21st Century America.
Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have pissed you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.
Even if you manage to collar the ringleader and verbally command them all outside you're still in potential danger. If the kid does have a gun you've just embarrassed him in front of his peers and he may attempt retribution on you and the entire shop.
While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.
This is one reason why some people freeze up. That fear of being "raped" by the system over something done by a criminal or stupid idiot. In the Seattle mall incident, I'd like to think I would have performed perfectly, but if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.
The reality is that it only takes a prosecutor running for re-election to decide that someone shooting "kids" should be an example of his zeal to protect the public.
kennybs plbg
New member
Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.
Now you sound like my wife. Your worried about being sued for inflicting "emotional trauma" but willing to take your chances for pulling your handgun and taking one or two children out with it. The statement of them having a gun didn't come out until the very end as they were being taken out the door.
Let me fill you in here, things aren't as bad as you think. Most of these kids parents/parent have no idea whats going on and actually would want to know. Some will always side with the children, but the message is still sent and don't think the children don't understand whats going on.
It must be sad to go through life in fear of everything.
kenny b
I would have called 911 immediatlly and told them about the 5 kids....
I would have told the 911 operator that one of them said he had a Gun...
I would have told my Mom to sit tight for a sec and trailed the kids (if vesiable) untill the Cops got to them...
But thats just me, I don't think anyone should say "I have a Gun" and be joking or trying to be big in front of his friends.
I would have told the 911 operator that one of them said he had a Gun...
I would have told my Mom to sit tight for a sec and trailed the kids (if vesiable) untill the Cops got to them...
But thats just me, I don't think anyone should say "I have a Gun" and be joking or trying to be big in front of his friends.
invention_45
New member
TexSigman:
I think he might be able to subtly "draw". Or at least "pre-draw". By this I mean, depending on how things are configured (seating, where the kids' attention seemed to be focused, etc.) Sir W might have just slowly grasped the grip, even if through a jacket or untucked shirt, and wiggled it so that the weapon was loose enough to remove quickly.
My IWB holster is fairly quick to draw from if I'm standing up. But I KNOW, because I've tried, that when I sit the leather flexes enough so the gun's stuck in there. You are right, there's no quick draw from even a properly fitted IWB while sitting.
However, it might have been possible to subtly make it so without being seen, and without actually drawing it. Maybe even pull it out and set it on the seat for maximum readiness, since there was a threat.
I am starting to get in the habit that when I sit while carrying IWB I do this loosening operation as a matter of routine. I'm sitting still, so even if I expose the trigger a little there's no risk. When I get up the gun would probably fall back in place, but I'll never know. I'm developing the habit of giving the grip a little shove through my untucked shirt as I stand up to leave.
I've been reading a lot about how criminals think and how to avoid crime. Pretty much, if you fail to avoid victimhood, like what happened to Sir W, or like in a robbery, and the BG has a gun, you are most likely to find out after it's already pointed at you. By then, it's probably way too late to start cold, draw, aim, and shoot before you're dead.
The key is situation awareness. That doesn't mean just comprehending a developing threat. It means taking steps to avoid/head off that situation as it unfolds.
I can tell you how I would have reacted, and this is NOT to criticize Sir W.
First, no sitting with my back to the door.
Then, sit as close to the door as practical. This also usually avoids being seated next to the stinky restroom.
Then, the minute I hear/see any sign of a ruckus of any kind, THAT is the time to get the gun loose enough to use quickly. That doesn't mean I pull it out or display it. And a mere ruckus or argument isn't quite enough, unless there's something special about it, to yank my 80 year old mother up out of a restaurant and leave without paying.
If it looks like that ruckus might be getting out of hand and my party and me are in a position to do so, I GTFO !!!
But, failing that, if weapons or threats of weapons materialize, I either make the gun very loose in the holster or put it in my lap and click the safety off.
Then, if a weapon gets pointed in my direction, I have a chance.
When I first started taking this approach, it seemed wildly paranoid and awkwardly silly. But now it's really becoming a habit. I will once in a while find myself seated near the door and forget whether I asked or not.
I think he might be able to subtly "draw". Or at least "pre-draw". By this I mean, depending on how things are configured (seating, where the kids' attention seemed to be focused, etc.) Sir W might have just slowly grasped the grip, even if through a jacket or untucked shirt, and wiggled it so that the weapon was loose enough to remove quickly.
My IWB holster is fairly quick to draw from if I'm standing up. But I KNOW, because I've tried, that when I sit the leather flexes enough so the gun's stuck in there. You are right, there's no quick draw from even a properly fitted IWB while sitting.
However, it might have been possible to subtly make it so without being seen, and without actually drawing it. Maybe even pull it out and set it on the seat for maximum readiness, since there was a threat.
I am starting to get in the habit that when I sit while carrying IWB I do this loosening operation as a matter of routine. I'm sitting still, so even if I expose the trigger a little there's no risk. When I get up the gun would probably fall back in place, but I'll never know. I'm developing the habit of giving the grip a little shove through my untucked shirt as I stand up to leave.
I've been reading a lot about how criminals think and how to avoid crime. Pretty much, if you fail to avoid victimhood, like what happened to Sir W, or like in a robbery, and the BG has a gun, you are most likely to find out after it's already pointed at you. By then, it's probably way too late to start cold, draw, aim, and shoot before you're dead.
The key is situation awareness. That doesn't mean just comprehending a developing threat. It means taking steps to avoid/head off that situation as it unfolds.
I can tell you how I would have reacted, and this is NOT to criticize Sir W.
First, no sitting with my back to the door.
Then, sit as close to the door as practical. This also usually avoids being seated next to the stinky restroom.
Then, the minute I hear/see any sign of a ruckus of any kind, THAT is the time to get the gun loose enough to use quickly. That doesn't mean I pull it out or display it. And a mere ruckus or argument isn't quite enough, unless there's something special about it, to yank my 80 year old mother up out of a restaurant and leave without paying.
If it looks like that ruckus might be getting out of hand and my party and me are in a position to do so, I GTFO !!!
But, failing that, if weapons or threats of weapons materialize, I either make the gun very loose in the holster or put it in my lap and click the safety off.
Then, if a weapon gets pointed in my direction, I have a chance.
When I first started taking this approach, it seemed wildly paranoid and awkwardly silly. But now it's really becoming a habit. I will once in a while find myself seated near the door and forget whether I asked or not.
I have a tuckable IWB holster and carry with my shirt bloused. With one hand, I can discreetly pull out the shirt and draw the weapon. It is definitely not as fast of a draw as the traditional shirt-rip, but it gives me another option to the shirt-rip.If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.
If I'm sitting in a booth at a restaurant, it would be hard for anyone to see my weapon under the table. If I'm standing in line, the people behind me could probably see it pretty well.
NOTE ADDED: If someone does see your gun, it could make things worse. Another CCW holder may think you're part of the "gang" and draw on you. More likely, someone will shout, "He's got a gun!" and cause a panic. In an ambiguous situation such as SW faced, having your hand on the grip and ready to draw is probably the overall best response: Your reaction time is reduced but you're not escalating the situation.
Last edited:
You should not pull the trigger unless you believe that doing so would prevent serious bodily injury, sexual assault, or death to yourself or innocent persons. If the alternative is to be severely injured or killed, I would rather be on the living side of that equation and take my risks with the legal system than to be dead or have my family members/friends dead. Letting yourself or others be killed or severely injured--possibly permanently handicapped--out of fear of the legal system doesn't make sense to me. If you're that afraid, don't carry; it won't do you any good.While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.
Better that than wondering how badly the funeral home will set up my open casket.if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.
Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.
By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?
I know you want to play the Charles Bronson Death Wish scene, Do you believe in Jesus?
Yes,
Good, cause your gonna meet him...boom!
I have a friend who is 19 and I take her to the cemetary to lay flowers on her father's grave...while there look at the tombstones and am quite amazed at how many "Gremlins" have found their just rewards!
By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?
I know you want to play the Charles Bronson Death Wish scene, Do you believe in Jesus?
Yes,
Good, cause your gonna meet him...boom!
I have a friend who is 19 and I take her to the cemetary to lay flowers on her father's grave...while there look at the tombstones and am quite amazed at how many "Gremlins" have found their just rewards!
Until we can read each other's minds, you'll never have an answer to that question.Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.
By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?
I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have beat a hasty retreat if he expected the police were on their way. I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have used the gun if he thought he could do so BEFORE the police were called.
I submit that most bad people, adults or kids, are more likely to leave if they think the police are coming, and conversely they are more likely to harm you if they think they can do so before you call the police. If you had someone pounding angrily on your front door, would you shout, "I've called the police!" or "I have not called the police!"?
It sounds like you did the right thing.
If you didn't have a gun, and your mom wasn't there, you could have followed them out, found a quieter spot, and beat the sh** out of them--starting by busting the fingers of the one who said he had a gun. Act all friendly, then strike without warning. No, "hey you, come here!" If the cops ever catch up with you plead self defense. No weapon, no rabid procecutor, they let you go. When you are armed you can't get in a scrape just cause some jerk(s) deserves it.
Since you had the piece on you, its best to stay out of it. Sombody else, like Lenny, will take care of them soon enough. I would have probably left with Mom when they started acting up. Otherwise, I'd be quietly drawing my gun under the table when he said he had a piece, in case he did start firing. Then you shoot to kill, no choice.
kiov
If you didn't have a gun, and your mom wasn't there, you could have followed them out, found a quieter spot, and beat the sh** out of them--starting by busting the fingers of the one who said he had a gun. Act all friendly, then strike without warning. No, "hey you, come here!" If the cops ever catch up with you plead self defense. No weapon, no rabid procecutor, they let you go. When you are armed you can't get in a scrape just cause some jerk(s) deserves it.
Since you had the piece on you, its best to stay out of it. Sombody else, like Lenny, will take care of them soon enough. I would have probably left with Mom when they started acting up. Otherwise, I'd be quietly drawing my gun under the table when he said he had a piece, in case he did start firing. Then you shoot to kill, no choice.
kiov