Bad Practice!

[Jammer Six]

Fascinating discussion.

Why are you so set against a class?

 

[Bob Wright]

First of all, I want to thank those of you who at least understood my position, rather than condemn me for having the audacity to go against the gunfighter training classes.

Why are you so set against a class?

I'm not against a class, but rather the methods taught. As shown in that "Briefcase" clip, the free hand is more than likely required to push aside a gun in your face. While doing this, the gun hand draws and fires.

Are you carrying a SA revolver cocked, or are you cocking upon draw?

No, my single action is an old model Ruger with no transfer bar. To carry it cocked is extremely dangerous. My thumb cocks the hammer during the draw. By the time my gun is level at about belt height the hammer is cocked and I press the trigger. There is no pause as in my practice it has become too late for my adversary to "withdraw the threat."

Consider this: I am, or have pumped gas, and am standing beside my Jeep. I am approached by a would be robber/car jacker. He keeps his gun behind his thigh out of my view, then suddenly thrusts his gun in my face. I have not signaled that I am armed, then push aside his gun while drawing and firing one shot, or follow up shots as required.

I have five shots, this leaves three at least for any accomplice. As for being approached by more than two, I won't let myself get into such a situation.

Engaging multiple opponents from ten, fifteen feet away and reloading, gives rise to the likelihood that one may have gone out "looking for a fight." And, continuing to fire raises the question of the possibility that the "self defense" phase has ended.

Much of my pratice and discipline is based mostly on the writings of Col. Charles Askins. He disdained set-piece practices.

I carry a single action because it is the most natural in my hand. I have lived with the single action revovler most of my life, even many years ago considered becoming an exhibition shooter, and am more confidant with it than any other handgun. Plus I know the capabilities of the .44 Special with hollow point bullets.

I once set up a range at Camp Roberts, California, and taught combat shooting with the .45 Pistol, using surprise pop-up targets. This, plus having talked to several folks who have been in life threatening situations and one who did have to shoot, has given me what I believe to be the best practice for my given situation.

Bob Wright

 

[zombietactics]

... I'm not against a class, but rather the methods taught. As shown in that "Briefcase" clip, the free hand is more than likely required to push aside a gun in your face. While doing this, the gun hand draws and fires.

Which is exactly what is taught at classes focusing on close-quarters defense or portions of some other classes. I think perhaps what is happening is an inaccurate assumption on your part: that the techniques you've disparaged represent the whole of what is taught. That's simply not the case. I am unaware of any school teaching a full-extension draw for close-quarters engagements.

 

[rodeo roy]

I've been to a class where this was taught. The instuctor was one of those guys decked out in all the gear and was glock this glock that he was a glock ad, he had no time or use for revolvers at all, plus I thought he winked at my wife. So basically I checked out and did not really give what he was teaching a chance. After revisiting the method I still think it's not pratical in self defense for me.

Many of you may have way more knowledge about it than me, ex military or police and some may have had to shoot a bad guy, but I'm just carrying for self defense and I pratice what I think is pratical.

7' to 12'
First as I reach for my gun eyes on target and background, step left or right.
Next bring gun up to target, fire 2 shoots, move left or right
Fire backup shoots if needed, look for cover.

5' or less
Reach for gun step to side eyes on target
Bring gun on target create motion, push, throw keys, with weak side hand. fire 2 shoots.
Change position kneel, shift/step to side fire back up shoots.

This just works for me in my midset of a self defense, but it's practice, if it came down to it I am not at sure what I would use/do all I know is I got a weapon and I'm prepared to use it to stop a threat. I do know the pratice will build memory.

 

[rodeo roy]

I agree with B Wright. I am not covinced that 'gunfighter class' is a big help for me. I also carry a revolver and have a limit to shoots I can get on target.

Practice I do think is a big help, so I develop and practice drills I think would work for me. no one method is perfect so I say pactice what you think is practical for you, to be ready and comfortable with my gun is what pratice gives me.

 

[redstategunnut]

You sound like the guys who tell me that they only train stand up because no fight they are in is ever going to go to the ground.

I really hope you never find out the hard way that you don't even know what you don't know.

 

[raimius]

I'm still not quite getting why the commonly taught drawstroke seems so wrong to some. What are your issues with its efficiency, accuracy, and use in various situations?

It's OK for retention shooting. It's good for moderate to longer distances. It's consistent. It does not flag the shooter. It's pretty darn efficient.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Your question proves almost conclusively that you have not been to a tactical training school...

I have not, nor do I intend to do so.

...basically I checked out and did not really give what he was teaching a chance...

In other words, neither of you have any real experience with solid, professional training, nor do you understand from experience what it involves and the skills and knowledge acquired. So your critiques are based on guesses and assumptions, rather than actual data. As such, I personally don't see much reason to take your criticisms or opinions seriously.

For anyone who might be interested, here is an article I wrote on my last trip to Gunsite.

 

[jimbob86]

I'm still not quite getting why the commonly taught drawstroke seems so wrong to some.

Because they have seen new shooters trying it the first time, and concluded that their waist level point shooting like they do at CAS rondezvous is superior.

If they can draw, move and fire and get 2 center hits at 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, then they might be OK...... that's the standard. I daresay that Jack Weaver proved at Big Bear Lake 60+ years ago that point shooting was not as accurate or fast outside of bad breath distance as using two hands .... Cooper wrote of it for near half a century ..... and yet there are still those who continue to convince me that he had "only ploughed the sea".....

_____________________________________________________

"There is no funtional difference between those who can not read, and those who do not."

 

[Jim Watson]

The class the OP observed was incomplete, as I believe has been made clear.

I have seen some good SA shooters and they can get the first shot on target as soon as anybody with any action type, and adequately fast for the next four or five.

As far as other obsolete weapons mentioned, some old guy name of Jeff Cooper called the .30-30 lever action the Brooklyn Carbine and considered it superior to the AK for midrange self defense. And NYPD detectives once carried "coach guns" on raids because of their simplicity, leaving the pumps to patrolmen and autos to SWAT.

 

[jimbob86]

I have seen some good SA shooters and they can get the first shot on target as soon as anybody with any action type, and adequately fast for the next four or five.

They won't ever beat Jerry Miculek ....or any of the really great shooters using the modern tecnique....

Apples to apples, two handed aimed fire is more effective. The OP saw some novices learning that tecnique, and since he was faster point shooting than the newbs, concluded that the tecnique was bad...... put him up against a two handed shooter of similar experience level on a shot timer, with penalties for mikes and poor hits, and he'd lose.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...I have seen some good SA shooters and they can get the first shot on target as soon as anybody with any action type, and adequately fast for the next four or five....

Absolutely true. In fact, I believe that in the past Clint Smith has put on some classes on the defensive use of the single action revolver.

...As far as other obsolete weapons mentioned, some old guy name of Jeff Cooper called the .30-30 lever action the Brooklyn Carbine and considered it superior to the AK for midrange self defense. And NYPD detectives once carried "coach guns" on raids because of their simplicity, leaving the pumps to patrolmen and autos to SWAT.

Also true. In fact Jeff Cooper often mentioned that he liked a short barrel SxS shotgun with exposed hammers for home defense, because it can be kept with shells in the chambers and hammers down indefinitely without putting any tension on any springs.

It's not about what the gun is. It's about good training and skill using it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...They won't ever beat Jerry Miculek ....or any of the really great shooters using the modern tecnique....

Well heck, neither will I -- even with everything I've learned at Gunsite, and from Louis Awerbuck and from Massad Ayood.

But I've no doubt that I'm better because of what I've learned at Guniste, from Louis and from Mas (and others), than I ever would have been without that training.

 

[jimbob86]

But I've no doubt that I'm better because of what I've learned at Guniste, from Louis and from Mas (and others), than I ever would have been without that training.

I don't doubt that at all..... your point reinforces mine: that the OP's assertion that two handed shooting, or one handed with the weak hand close to the body, was "bad training" was based on his perception of new shooters abilities, when compared to his abilities as a somewhat experienced point shooter..... I still think your average IDPA shooter would flat smoke the OP in a timed event.

 

[rodeo roy]

If my post was misunderstood let me be clear. I stated I revisited the type of training described and I did not find it practical for me. I also stated that I was less informed than many hear. My purpose for carrying is not to show off my hobby, nor for work. It's only for protection and I practice according to what I feel would work for me and what's in my comfort zone. Its a personal choice I made / make, I also stated that practice in itself builds memory that will help should the need arise.

It seems as others dislike criticism. That's ok. Like I have stated many time sd is as much about staying away from places not in keeping with me having a good experience so to that end I'll pack my guns and go. I leave to the know it all hobbyist among you.

Happy Shooting, see you at the rodeo.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My purpose for carrying is not to show off my hobby, nor for work. It's only for protection and I practice according to what I feel would work for me and what's in my comfort zone...

Well some of those of us who have sought out and gotten training also carry for personal protection, not to show off (and I carry whenever I legally can, mostly my visits to Nevada and Arizona). And you are free to make your own decision, but that doesn't mean that your decision will necessarily be helpful to anyone else.

And --

• If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.
  
  
• If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. That might be good enough, or it might not be.
  
  
• The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.

 

[FireForged]

If my post was misunderstood let me be clear. I stated I revisited the type of training described and I did not find it practical for me. I also stated that I was less informed than many here. My purpose for carrying is not to show off my hobby, nor for work. It's only for protection and I practice according to what I feel would work for me and what's in my comfort zone. Its a personal choice I made / make, I also stated that practice in itself builds memory that will help should the need arise.

Very well said..

I am not against new ideas or specialized training.. training is a good thing. However, I will say that I am still and will always be one of those guys who drives a AR15 by grip'n the mag well and getting small behind the rifle. Its what I know, its what I learned on a static range shooting at pie plates in the 80's. No matter all the smerks and grins over the years, I have done just fine in any shoot/move or carbine courses I have attended. Maybe not as good as good as some of the youngens but a passing score all the same. Again, I am not against training, training is good. I am just not inclined to believe that a person with good common sense and average shooting skills is somehow helpless in the face of a 6 foot brick wall simply because no one has trained him how to get over it.

 

[zombietactics]

... not inclined to believe that a person with good common sense and average shooting skills is somehow helpless ...

With all genuine respect due ... A mouse is not helpless against a cat either, but any rational person will be hard pressed to explain why the latter won't be the victor on the basis of anything but blind chance. The battle doesn't always go to the strong, nor the race to the swift ... but we generally have an expectation in that regard as well.

I can't think of any field of endeavor where "average" is anything but a shade above incompetent. I've been a victim of violent crime on 4 occasions, 2 with guns pointed at me. I'll bet my continued survival on a more robust sense of reality.

 

[orionengnr]

From the way you describe the drill in the initial post, sounds very similar to the "four step" presentation drill that GunSite (and probably others) teaches.

The idea (as I understand it) is to keep the off-hand from being swept during the initial presentation, yet getting the off-hand into a two-handed grip as soon as it is practical to do so.

IIRC, they advocate that one should practice this form of presentation daily (15 minutes, 100 repetitions, whatever) until it is rote.

I can see that if you are in a "non-standard" (whatever that is) encounter such as grappling with a BG, this ritual may place you at a disadvantage.

I can see that this can present what seems to be a quandary...and I do not speak for any trainer or organization. My understanding is that we train most for the most-likely situation.

Add another variable--the same situation exists for those who carry OWB sometimes, and pocket-carry other times. When "It" happens, will your hand go to the wrong place? Can you ingrain several different presentations into your sub-conscious, and select the right one when the adrenaline is flowing? (Doubtful, IMHO).

Or, can you commit to that 15-minutes-or-100-presentations every single day, without fail? And even if you do, you are either training for the "four step" presentation, or for a "retention" drill. I know someone who dedicates the last 15 minutes of a range session to strictly "retention" drills...if the range he is visiting allows it.

Lots of questions, none of them easy. I suspect most of us are somewhere in the middle.

FWIW, I have historically tried to limit my "change-overs" to "Winter" and "Not-Winter"...and in the last couple years, I am trying to just settle on one handgun and one carry method, and stick with it. year-round. That eliminates one of the two variables. Not sure how to eliminate the other.

I am not a low-drag, high speed dude. I am heading into old-fartdom. My range does not permit presentation from a holster, double taps, or other "advanced" techniques...and that is fine. They are running a range, not a school.

Sorry for the novel. It is a question worthy of thought and discussion, and we all may learn something.

 

[dawg23]

Well some of those of us who have sought out and gotten training also carry for personal protection, not to show off (and I carry whenever I legally can, mostly my visits to Nevada and Arizona). And you are free to make your own decision, but that doesn't mean that your decision will necessarily be helpful to anyone else

Frank:

Thanks for trying. I'm sure you have helped a lot of folks with your posts in this thread, while it's likely that one or two will continue to ignore all that you have shared.

Having trained with a few respected instructors (Clint Smith, Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, James Yeager, John Farnam, Jerry Miculek, Andy Stanford, Karl Rehn and few more), I think I understand more than I did when I first started carrying. But the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.