Bad Practice!

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Bob Wright

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The range where I shoot has several self (?) defense classes, and many students share range time with me. I have observed two practices that, to me, could prove fatal. In both practices, the shooter is wearing the gun butt to the rear, on his right hip for a right handed shooter.

The first has the shooter facing the target, or assailant, full on. He then draws, right hand for a right handed shooter, from the near hip position and brings the gun up to a point just in front of the breast bone, while bringing his left hand to grip the gun. He then thrusts the gun forward bringing it up to eye level, and fires two quick shots.

The second has the shooter face the target. He then makes a fist with his left hand and clasps it to his right
shoulder, sort of like the old Roman Centurian salute. He then draws one handed, thrusts his pistol forward at eye level and fires two quick shots.

Both of these practices are time consuming. I daresay I could draw my .44 Single action and get off at least two shots before they fire.

Who is teaching this kind of gunfighting?

Bob Wright
 
I see that a lot in tactical training videos online, as well as plenty of still photos of the fist on the chest bit. I am still looking for an answer to that part.

But I think that both cases might result in a more accurate string of shots that a single action .44. I am not at all doubting your prowess with the weapon, but I don't think either method you describe takes much longer with a semi- auto handgun.
 
I'm not looking for an accurate string of shots. I'm looking to poke my assailant in the gut and blow his heart out.

Bob Wright
 
IIRC the 1 handed thing is two fold, 1 it insures the non-firing hand is out of the way, 2 it promotes consistency of body position, and by relation consistency of shot placement. Although IIRC the practice of putting your weak hand in the same spot everytime comes from bullseye shooting, so I don't know how well it translates to defensive pistol.

The two handed thing IIRC is to put the final motion of the pistol perpendicular to the target vs parallel/tangent. If you drive the pistol forward any excess motion should in theory have less effect on accuracy than if you arc/swing the pistol up where over-travel or excess motion could have more effect on accuracy.

That's all based on cobbled together info, so I could be completely wrong, but that's my take on the explanations I've heard.
 
Bob Wright said:
...Both of these practices are time consuming. I daresay I could draw my .44 Single action and get off at least two shots before they fire...
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No, not when properly trained and practiced. Standard at Gunsite, for example, is two rounds center of mass, from the holster and including a step to one side, at seven yards in 1.5 seconds. That is using the standard presentation discussed below.

I described the steps of the standard presentation in this post:
Frank Ettin said:
...[1] You want to achieve a full firing grip before withdrawing the pistol from the holster. You should not have to shift your grip. Throughout the draw stroke, until you are actually going to fire the gun, the trigger finger stays off the trigger, outside the trigger guard and indexed along the frame. 



[2] While the strong hand is moving to grip the pistol, the weak hand is placed flat on the abdomen near the same level as the grip of the pistol. This helps assure that the weak hand isn't swept by the muzzle and also puts the weak hand in position to take grip the pistol over the strong hand.



[3] The pistol is withdrawn straight upwards from the holster, and the muzzle is rotated toward the target after it clears the holster. If using 1911, Browning High Power, or some other gun with a safety engaged, the safety may be disengaged here, but the trigger finger remains off the trigger, outside the trigger guard and indexed along the frame.



[4] When the muzzle is rotated toward the target the strong hand is at about the level of the strong side pectoral muscle and the strong hand is held at or touching the side with the muzzle pointed to the threat. If the threat is very close, within a few yards, the gun may be fired from this position. This is called the retention position. 



[5] At the retention position, the weak hand comes up to assume its part of the grip. The two hands then together extend the gun either fully up to shooting position or partially at a downward angle to the low ready position, depending on the circumstances.



[6] The gun is holstered by following those steps in reverse. I have been taught to follow these steps whenever removing my gun from, or placing my gun in, the holster.

...
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In practice, while learning, one starts off doing the slowly. The goal is to become smooth. Quickness comes from being smooth, as does developing the facility for properly performing the task reflexively, on demand.

Here, the presentation is demonstrated by Charlie McNeese, a Range Master at Gunsite Academy.

Here the presentation is demonstrated by Rob Pincus, another well know instructor and a member of TFL.

Here competitive shooter Max Michel is demonstrating the presentation. He's using competition gear, but the technique is essentially the same. Notice early in the video he's shown shooting dominant hand only with his non-dominant hand against his chest.

Holding the clenched fist of the non-shooting hand against one's chest is now the standard technique taught for one-handed (either dominant hand only or non-dominant hand only) shooting. It gets the non-shooting hand out of the way and anchors the upper body for a solid shooting platform.

When properly learned and practiced it's no slower than any other technique for drawing and shooting with one hand. The non-shooting hand is brought to the chest while the gun is drawn and will be in place no later than when the gun is on target.

Bob Wright said:
...Who is teaching this kind of gunfighting?
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Pretty much all the major schools and instructors.
 
Bob Wright

I'm not looking for an accurate string of shots. I'm looking to poke my assailant in the gut and blow his heart out.
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Frank Ettin's post above covers the explanation of the presentation as taught by those who follow "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" as propounded by Jeff Cooper and memorialized in the book of the same title by Gregory B. Morrison.

Consider that if you do everything right and first to incapacitate a deadly threat, you might still have a fighting threat attacking you for several or many seconds. Even humans with non-functional hearts have fought for several seconds. Several seconds can equal many aimed shots.

In competition with timers and with shooters punching paper targets a few hundredths of a second can make a difference between first place and second. However, I submit that in a self-defense shooting one one hundredth (1/100th) of a second is irrelevant. Competition is good to simulate stress as far as it goes.

You must not expect two shots to center of mass to instantaneously incapacitate the threat. It might do so, but do not stand there in disbelief that it did not.

In addition to your other practice, add practice for moving to cover. Practice follow-up shots.

Unfortunately, many ranges prohibit movement as it is impractical and/or not possible to do with safety concerns and range designs. So if you can not actually practice it, at least put it in your mental expectations.
 
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I believe the technique may look time consuming when wearing OWB holsters and standing at the open range, BUT it was designed to to be a very efficient draw and presentation in a variety of cluttered environments and retain maximum control of the pistol.

Sure, it may be a lot more work than a pull and shoot if they threat is only 3 ft away. So if the threat is 20 ft away do you change your draw? I think the intent is to have one fairly simple draw that works for a variety of distances and circumstances and you only practice one method very well. It may not be the fastest at point blank range but it is probably more controlled and accurate at various distances and environments.
 
It will be good for guys like Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, Brian Enos, and Eric Grauffel to finally know they've been practicing bad :p

In all seriousness, this is exactly the way we're all taught in IPSC to draw, and the reasons for it are discussed online in so many places it would be redundant for me to get into them here. Lets just say that guys like Grauffel can probably draw and shoot two accurate shots much faster than anyone can in this particular thread.
 
I thought the initial purpose of keeping the firearm very close to the body was to help keep it from being knocked away easily. The thrusting helps with the aiming itself as you tend to point right at what you want to hit. I'm sure some can pull a .44 SA and pop it old gunfighter style, but not for most. I did see an old guy on a 60 minute type show that was supposed to be the fastest gun alive. He shot out two balloons from the draw and it only sounded like one shot. Unbelievable, they had to show it in slow motion to prove that he actually did it.
 
A few reasons unrelated to defense: economy of motion, plus your sight picture is already established before you reach extension. You don't draw, reach extension, then line your sights up. The other guy will have finished the stage in the amount of time you'll take to do that.

If you extend your arms and lift them to the target, it's likely you'll pass through your sight picture because you must brake your movement. Even if you brake on time perfectly, braking costs time and has to be avoided at all costs.

They teach it as 3 separate movements and you practice each in isolation to master each part. But once you put it together it is one fluid motion and it becomes automatic.
 
The first has the shooter facing the target, or assailant, full on. He then draws, right hand for a right handed shooter, from the near hip position and brings the gun up to a point just in front of the breast bone, while bringing his left hand to grip the gun. He then thrusts the gun forward bringing it up to eye level, and fires two quick shots.
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That's pretty much how I've been taught to do it, and how I've taught others how to do it. Shot count may vary depending on the drill. Very effective method when done properly (just like anything else). Do what you feel is best.

Good luck.
 
NWPilgrim said:
...it may be a lot more work than a pull and shoot if they threat is only 3 ft away...
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At 3 feet, one would fire from the retention position (item [4] of my description in post 5 of the draw stroke).

Gerry said:
...economy of motion, plus your sight picture is already established before you reach extension...
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It actually goes with the flash sight picture. Here's how Greg Morrison describes the flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):
...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistolfighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.

...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....
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Your question proves almost conclusively that you have not been to a tactical training school. Your claim regarding a ".44 single action" finishes the proof.

Drive on, but do not mistake gun games for self-defense preparedness.
 
Have to concur with the others. First if you need to do a quick draw you might want to rethink where you are the next time. Second the draw should be practiced from all the places you ever carry a gun, shoulder, hip, back pocket crossdraw et al.

It has always been my philosophy since I grew up some and got over the Wyatt Earp syndrome that the first good shot wins the fight not the first shot. I practice my draw to make a good draw which means not getting hung up in my clothing or throwing my gun towards the enemy before I have a chance to shoot it. (Do not ask how I know these things) You might beat me to the draw with your gun in the fast draw position but I won;t miss, I'm to old and slow to rely on luck so I better do it right the first time.

When I do a strong side draw or a weak side cross draw from a holster on my hip my weak hand goes to my solar plexus no matter what my shooting position or stance is when the draw is clean and clear or to my clothing to clear a path if wearing clothing that could impede the draw. It doesn't matter if I am going to shoot one handed or 2 hand.

It has been my philosophy since I grew up and got over the Wyatt Earp syndrome of lighting fast draw was mandatory that the first good shot wins the fight not the first shot. I'm to old and to slow to be beating anybody to the draw so I don't dare miss when I do get into shooting position.

Used to be pretty quick when I was younger, I also hit furniture with the barrel while drawing, hit a TV with the gun from 6' away, almost hit the dog and dropped the gun after snagging it on my jacket or a shirt worn outside the belt. Took awhile to realize a good draw was a sure draw not a fast draw that might not leave you in control of the gun. I'd rather find a tree to hide behind while I draw a gun and not do a Dodge Street at high noon thing.

I'm not in uniform anymore and I don't dress to fight boogermen every day, that's why we have cops and the cops better have their guns in hand already if they expect to be facing an armed man with bad intentions.
 
redstategunnut wrote:
Your question proves almost conclusively that you have not been to a tactical training school. Your claim regarding a ".44 single action" finishes the proof.
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I have not, nor do I intend to do so.


Drive on, but do not mistake gun games for self-defense preparedness.
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I do not consider my practice "games" any more than you do. I have a pretty good concept of how a potential hold-up/car jacking attempt might unfold in my area, none of which invloves an assailant displaying a gun from eight or ten feet away from me and allowing me the luxury of a methodical draw, rotate, thrust and fire technique.


Bob Wright
 
I think the misunderstanding (perhaps) centers around perceiving any particular technique as "one size fits all".

Bob: My quite humble suggestion to you is to participate in a good Force-on-Force class. You'll either confirm your suspicions or have your eyes opened. I strongly suspect it will be more the latter than the former.

Since I am admittedly somewhat ignorant regarding single-action revolvers, maybe you can clarify something for me. Are you carrying a SA revolver cocked, or are you cocking upon draw? It seems either technique has its share of "bad practice" issues, but maybe there is something I'm missing?
 
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