Bad Habits! - My opinion of One Trainer’s Opinion – Rob!

[JohnKSa]

Welcome to the forums Glen Meyer...

You're 7 years too late to welcome him to the forums. Mr. Meyer has been a TFL member since 2000.

Go back to Glock talk..

If you think you have some sort of authority here you are sadly mistaken. I strongly suggest that you stick to addressing the content of Mr. Meyer's post and forget about trying to order him or any other TFL member around.

Oh, by the way, welcome to The Firing Line.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Sbob,

If you have an opinion on Tactics and/or Training, please feel free to post it. Rantings and personal attacks haven't been welcome here since 1998.

-RJP

 

[sbob63]

Don't beat up on me...

Sorry I have ran into this before...logic that flies in the face of reality...Glenn....

1) If you don't want to do a tactical reload, fine, don't want retention, fine, but in the real world you don't want to run out of ammo while someone is shooting at you. Obvious Results. If some military guys tells you that they reload running down the street saying...'I'm out, I'm out, so what. Military firearms training is minimal at best anyway, pistol? Almost non existant. They don't train for CCW, or civilian situations, no real legal issues...they have buddies with them firing...the lone armed civilian is in a different circumstance...

2) If you want to reload out in the open, while someone is shooting at you, fine, be my guest. Obvious Results. If your complaining that you can't duck down and reload at an IDPA match, good for you, but I can, and do, and will...

3) Chamber indicator...who's? Glock?, one where you have to find it with your tirgger finger..basicaly useless...what about the MP, you have to look down a little hole, try that in the dark....1911, I don't have one. I think the XD is probably the best, but almost..it's moot anyway..I can tell if my gun went into battery anyway...if there is a lull I will check, but feeling around for the right side Glock indicator, racking the slide a little to check, in the dark or while someone is shooting at me, is well, just a little time consuming...yes if I have time, if not, and it's not in battery....0001 tenth of a second to rack the slide.

4) Magazine seat test, slamming a mag home hard enough the first time, should preclude this.

1,2,3,4...if you have a gun that has reliablly cycled for the last 3000 rds, no mag, seating, chambering, feed issues, then why would you take the time to all of sudden worry about this stuff, go through the motions, if it's never been a problem before. One more reason to bring a reliable, personaly tested gun to the fight. Yes crawling up on a guy, where you now have to expose yourself to an AK47 terrorist, you can best bet I will check, check, and double check, prior to running up behind him, while he is whacking people, but that's a premeditated, time on my side move...not in the heat of battle, bullets flying....

Yelling that your out, might be an IDPA thing, but yes in team deals, if you need ammo, your buddy in the tac team can throw you his extra mag. I don't operate in a team, moot point for me, and I certainly don't want to let the bad guy know that NOW is the time to for him to come around behnd that baracade and shoot me. That won't be problem for you, though as you will be out in the open, reloading for him to see that your out.

'However, some FOF experience convinces me otherwise. The opponents can surround you despite your Code Chartreuse level. They can be quite big. You can miss them. Training suggests sometimes that a major hauling of ass is the best strategy (seen at an Insights FOF).'

What if you can't run? do you think that killers and muggers are going to be sitting in wheelchairs when they roll up, that you can outrun everyone. Get it clear that no sane person wants a gunfight, but might have to step up, and putting on a pair of track shoes isn't always an option. If your not ready to fight when you have to, when running isn't an option, say to protect your family, pirates at sea, in an alley, in your home, then carrying a gun is moot point. Don't bother, your just not ready to use it.

While training might not be perfect, let's be realistic. I remember reading that you can't get knife training from a real knife fighter, they are all dead. The same might be true of gunfighters, the last of which we saw about 150 years ago. So we have to look at what has worked for others, what didn't and what is most logical, what makes sense.

If you can run, great, if you can't, you fight, or you give up, leaving your fate, and the fate of your family perhaps to the whim and will of others that are not so nice. Your choice, but you have to acknowledge this...sometimes, you have to fight, or you will die, period, running is not an option.

 

[BillCA]

I guess I'm a certified "old phart" now that AARP is sending me pleadings to join up.

Tac reloads - forget the idea of retention. Reloading the gun and getting it into operation is the critical factor.

Or have people forgotten the lessons learned from the loss of four highway patrolmen at Newhall, Ca. in 1970? The primary lesson here was don't be caught dead with empties in your hand. Or rather, train how you fight, fight how you train.

(Some CHP officers were found with empty revolver brass in their hands because the CHP range taught them to drop empties into a coffee can in order to keep the range neat.)

If you've gotten yourself into an extended firefight, especially as a CCW, and you have lost track of how many shots (1,2,3...bunch), reload at your first opportunity. Worry about picking up the magazine when you have time. If I have to reload, it's time to reconsider continuing the fight vs. a tactical advance to the rear.

Press Checks:
On a range, I can understand this, occassionally. But I've long been in the habit of NOT holstering an empty gun or a gun with an empty chamber. If the gun has to be unloaded in the holster, remove the magazine. Load when appropriate and then holster. When leaving the house with a CCW piece, I know that it's loaded without needing a press-check.

Training:
The good thing about any firearm is that it allows a weak person to defend themselves against a stronger attacker or multiple attackers. Even with little training it seriously tips the scales in favor of the defender.

But how much training does one need? I think it depends on what kind of encounter you're likely to have.

For police & military a high level of training is desireable. Train solo, in pairs and in teams. Train with a good level of tactical thinking and widely varied courses of fire.

For CCW, at least a basic firearms course to learn the fundamentals of trigger squeeze, using the sights and a focus on COM shots.

Advanced CCW training, I think, should focus on CQ shooting, point shooting, multiple targets, the use of cover and reloading under stress. No fancy hostage scenes, no anti-terrorist drills.

 

[PPGMD]

On a range, I can understand this, occassionally. But I've long been in the habit of NOT holstering an empty gun or a gun with an empty chamber. If the gun has to be unloaded in the holster, remove the magazine. Load when appropriate and then holster. When leaving the house with a CCW piece, I know that it's loaded without needing a press-check.

Do you want to rely on your memory, checking your gun before you holster it for the day is an extra bit of security, particular if you have multiple CCW guns for different types fo clothing.

Chamber indicators can break also.

In combat a press check makes no sense, but when you are putting a already loaded gun in it's holster it's a good idea to check before you head out IMO.

 

[scottz0369]

You may not have up to date info

Your info on military training may not be up to date. I can speak first hand about the Marine Corps Infantry training. I don't know what the other services do, though.
You said-
"Military firearms training is minimal at best anyway, pistol? Almost non existant."
Our current training requirements for deploying to OIF/OEF include qualification on different tables (table 3 for non-infantryman, table 3&4 for infantryman).
Table 3 requires about 800 rounds (5.56) to be fired at a minimum, while Table 4 needs about 500 more. Again, this is a minimum. Last year just in pre-qualification and sustainment training alone, I put 130,000 5.56 rounds through the rifles of 200 Marines.
This is all over and above regular qualification and field firing tables (300 rounds or so).
We also do partial tables with all of our sighting systems--for example, I have iron sights, an ACOG and an Aimpoint CompM3 on my M4/M203 (I don't use all at once, of course-they're mission dependant)-all are zeroed.
Admittedly, we train less with pistols (aside from annual qualification: ~200 rounds). For Marines with a rifle and pistol (SNCO's and Officers), we incorporate combat drills to augment/suppliment the rifle. Typically, we work transition drills (going to the pistol for any failure to fire on the rifle within 25 yards of the target), strong hand/weak hand draw, strong hand/weak hand failure to stop drills (it's a 9mm, after all), speed reloads, tac reloads, low light/no light shooting (with a surefire or NVG's depending on situation). We also shoot the 9mm out to 50meters, but there's not an emphasis on that. My crew put about 1500 rounds each through our pistols in preparation for this deployment.

Bottom line, I feel that we as Marines are well trained to handle just about any situation where a rifle/pistol is the appropriate tool for the job.

You also said:
"They don't train for CCW, or civilian situations, no real legal issues...they have buddies with them firing...the lone armed civilian is in a different circumstance..."
True, to a point. We do have restrictions on shoot/no shoot over here (I can't go into specifics-ROE's are not something releasable). It's safe to say that we always have the right to defend ourselves. There are situations that we could potentially find ourselves alone. I'm part of a small training/transition team and we're some time away from help. Beyond that, urban combat is a very confusing and fluid environment, and people become separated.

But, we're getting off the original point of the thread. We were talking about tac reloads and press checks. What is the harm in doing a tac reload with magazine retention? True, average joe won't "need" it, but the truth is that the average joe doesn't live in a threatening enough environment to "need" to carry a firearm (that statement will probably get me in trouble-for the record-I am for concealed carry for anyone not legally prevented from doing so-mentally ill and felons are good examples- and I'm a staunch believer in gun ownership/posession as guaranteed to us in the second amendment). In my view, carrying a firearm is a last-resort / worst case tool. If I'm going to go as far as carrying a firearm for potential worst case, it just makes sense to me to train to use that firearm in the worst case it could potentially be needed.
I'd rather know it and not need it than need it and not know it.

Scott
Somewhere in Iraq

 

[DonR101395]

+1 Scott

I can also say that my unit teaches CCW during our initial skills training course (a 14 hour block of instruction for CCW) you go through when you first arrive to the unit. We also dedicate a percentage of spin up and attend civilian training course specifically for the CCW training. When you are carrying concealed in other countries there is a real legal concern and it is often a PITA.

 

[Rob Pincus]

I know I get a lot of SF/NSW students doing CCW and ECQT training.....

 

[SAWBONES]

All good points, though I'd observe that the "press check" in one form or another, can be done safely and competently, and does serve a genuine purpose on older gun designs like the 1911 & P35, though it's a "do it if in doubt" action, not a mandatory or frequent activity, nor certainly something to be doing "when the action starts".

The trouble with all "rule sets" and backlash "counter-rule sets" is that no rule applies always, under any and all conditions, not even the venerated Four Rules.

 

[David Armstrong]

For the civilian carrying a 7+1 Warthog, 1911, or even only one extra mag, a tactical reload, with or without retention is a must..

On the contrary, the tactical reload is one of the least important skills needed. As mentioned, it provides nothing that can't be achieved as good or better with another technique. Even in the military (where the potential need for a tactical reload is at least possible) the reload with retention serves the same job in a more efficient and effective manner.

The same might be true of gunfighters, the last of which we saw about 150 years ago.

Once again we see a lack of understanding the reality of the world. Lots of true gunfighters have been around in the last 150 years, some are still around today, and some are still gunfighting.

 

[Erik]

Nice article as usual, Rob. You're doing your part which makes it easier for the rest of us. Thanks.

---

I see no reason to press check your own firearm having just reloaded it. I see it as a "tactical security blanket" to be grown out of like a kid does his wubby.
Another's you may have aquired for what ever reason? Sure.

I agree that tac-reloads belong in the realm of ongoing engagements and should be trained in that context. Not training for that? Then don't spend much time on it; there are better skill sets to hone.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Thanks, Erik... its been a controversial article.. some have missed the point that I was trying to get at: Stop doing things "just because" and make sure that you've thought them through to examine their validity and/or are at least training them in context.

For those of you who are interested in Subscribing (or renewing your subscription) to S.W.A.T, the magazine is offering a new training DVD that I taped this fall for FREE as a promotion:

For a limited time, S.W.A.T. Magazine is offering a free DVD entitled "Tactical Pistol Training Tips".

This DVD is over an hour long and retails for $24.95... it was taped this fall at The Valhalla Training Center and focuses on ways to make your defensive pistol training better when you're at the range. Drills, Techniques and Target Types are all covered.

You can learn about on Page 35 of the Jan 2008 issue or by calling 1-800-673-4595.

This is a fast paced DVD with great content... not a fluff piece give-away.

______

 

[Spectre]

Hey, Rob.

I agree about the whole "press check" thing. I load or unload.

I don't totally agree, or may even disagree with your other points, but I understand reasons why you may hold them. I also believe somewhat different skill sets- other than doing the obvious "hit the enemy"- may be needed for CCW and military use.

FWIW, when I was "regreening" before deployment at Benning last May, I was told the M9 qual was about as rudimentary as you could get.

Peace,

John Shirley