Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Got my issue of Swat the other day and as usual, full of interesting things. One thing that caught my eye (besides the back cover) was Rob Pincus’ article on training. I’m really interesting in training issues given that I’m a teacher and that as a F.O.G who never served in the military, training is the closest I will get to preparing from some evil incident. BTW, I do not want to ever be in an evil incident. I have no blood lust to test my skills. After deciding to have firearms, my academic bent (see my sig) led me to train and study. I also found I enjoy it. I’ve trained with KRtraining in TX (my primary guru – Karl Rehn), Insights, Andy Stanford from OPS, Massad Ayoob in LFI-1 and the Stressfire component, Tom Givens – Rangemaster, Steve Moses, NRA personal protection course and some other misc. things – like a course in Skeet. I’ve done the NTI three times to get some intense FOF and simulations. I compete each month and just shot a great carbine match with Rivercity Shooters in San Antonio. My squad mates were law enforcement, retired Marines and more FOGs! My view of this is as a FOG wanting to defend himself.
Thus, I like training. So what did Rob have say? He criticized several training trends and techniques:
Tactical Reloads – the bane of the IDPA match. Thinks they are not worth the trouble. I agree
Jiggle two hicap mags between your fingers and hope you don’t drop both. If you practice this 3500 times, you might do it fast – until you are under stress. Folks argue if the tactical is faster than the reload with retention (remove, stow, reload).
I don’t think we have ever found a case that involves a civilian in which the tac reload saved the day or when it was clear that a with retention reload would cause him or her to fail. It is much more likely that you will do a slide lock reload than a tac reload. Don’t waste so much time on. If you do have a lull, your normal motor skills can probably handle a reload with retention.
I remember doing a retention reload once in a shoot house during the NTI. It was a highly constrained circumstance. Since, I had cleared and handled the dummies, had no live opponent, and had a touch of cover before proceeding – I consciously decided to do a retention reload. It the usual FOG shoot out – if I am stuck with my 642, I’m probably going to clicky cylinder!!! If I have my Glock 19, it will be pretty intense to through 16 rounds. If I do, it will be a slide lock. That’s what I should practice – it would seem.
BTW, just to rant – the IDPA go to cover rule is also an artifact of the tac reload. I’ve seen military or police who say that reload where ever you are, on the run to where you are going. In a match where you know the COF, you can plan the tac reload and the move the cover. That going to happen in the mall when the loonies are shooting. The dreaded round dumping penalty is a natural consequence of the cover rule. Since you probably don’t know when you are going to reload against moving folk, as compared to the fierce cardboard attacker, that rule set should be dumped. Also, the 10 round limit. Too bad about California. Fight with the gun at capacity for SSP. CDP should take care of the 1911 folks ( which I do shoot).
So, bye – bye emphasis on tac reloads. I agree.
Press Checks – Is the gun loaded? Rob says that with reliable loaded chamber indicators – who needs it? Good point. Also, moving the slide a bit and guess what, the round gets mad and decides not to go back into the barrel and the gun won’t work! He saw a good deal of malfunctions with students doing that and folks covering themselves (and ME!). I saw a gentleman who when manipulating his slide turned his gun parallel to his belly (FOG!) instead of down range (wasn’t a press check drill but the same idea). He did it against despite being warned. The line of guys in class stepped back in sync in a move that would make the Rockettes proud. Needless to say, said student was chastised.
Rob recommends a test if the magazine is seated as sufficient. If you forgot to rack it (now who would do that?), or whatever it’s a good learning experience.
I learned one of my old AR-15 mags bellied up as I gave it a good tap. Three rounds came out of the ejection port. Well, that one is going into the box of old crappy gun stuff.
Announcing – I’M OUT!
Why? Reload the gun and shut up. It’s a critical incident reload. Let’s tell everybody you are out. Reload if you got ‘em. If you don’t – close the slide, the gun still may look intimidating. Get to cover.
Also, you can whack them with the gun as I learned in a class. So what is the purpose of yelling that you are out? Maybe a place in team tactics if you are truly out and your mates think that you can still shoot. Not really a FOG gun fight, though.
Speed Holstering – walking off the range and reholstering a loaded gun in a casual manner I take it. Rob argues that you reholster on the range after a threat assessment. That’s what we did at the NTI on several stages. You checked your six, etc., reloaded if needed and then reholstered with deliberation. We see reports of NDs at nationally know schools with reholstering probably that are rushed. One hole in my butt is enough.
When will you ever need to rush a reholstering? After you save the day and the cops arrive? It that case, if my gun is still out, they will probably tell me to drop it. And I will. I will not say: Officer, I am a trained FOG and I will reholster. Or I will put it down slowly as it is my $4000 Titanium 1911 Executor. I’m dropping it. At the NTI, we had a court room gun fight. The law arrived in force. I had shot a BG. I raised the gun over my head and yelled – GOOD GUY – and then followed orders.
I think analyses of training are needed. I’m lucky that the folks I’ve trained with have been careful, circumspect and not blood lusted. They teach technique and mind set with a reasonable viewpoint.
Training is an interesting issue. Most gun carriers don’t train. I came from a nongun environment so I wasn’t cursed by ‘being around guns since I was knee high to the outhouse’. That’s a point Tiger McKee makes in another excellent article in the current issue. Most CHLs just want the gun to carry in the car – where to most incidents happen? When you are driving?
Maybe training isn’t that important. Most DGUs as Kleck points out have no shots fired. My friend, colleague and list member, Dave Armstrong makes this point also. Probabilistically you don’t need training and you don’t need bullets! Haha. However, most untrained chortle on how they will win the archetypal single mugger gun fight that goes like this:
Mugger announces: I am a bad MF. I want your money.
FOG: No, you will not get it. Watch as I pull out my gun. I will kill you with one shot as that is all a Texan needs (heard by me in the big name gun store in Austin). Also, I am 6 foot and 250 pounds of Quack Duck Foo Yu training. I can handle myself.
Thus, the mugger is taken down with the inverted dragon flame move to eye or shot once in the head (as he stood still for you).
However, some FOF experience convinces me otherwise. The opponents can surround you despite your Code Chartreuse level. They can be quite big. You can miss them. Training suggests sometimes that a major hauling of ass is the best strategy (seen at an Insights FOF).
What about the esoteric gun fight? A terrorist attack with long arms, a lunatic with such? I think a raison d’etre for training is in part to handle the fight when deterrence of the single mugger goes awry or the opponent is not the money motivator singleton but a rampage killer. Two cases don’t make an unchallengeable cases but I can think of two esoteric gun fights that didn’t go well for the CHL good guy, even though they did help the innocent.
In Tyler, Texas – Mark Allen Wilson engaged David Arroyo who was on a rampage with a MAK-90. Wilson hit him with his 45 ACP and Arroyo went down. According to some reports after hitting Arroyo (who was wearing body armour) Wilson left cover and was shot. He didn’t fire or attempt a head shot. He hit the guy once. He probably had time for more shots but didn’t take them. Brendan McKown in the Tacoma Mall shooting failed to do the deed when he challenged the rampage shooter. He was shot and terrible injured. Both men were brave and did the right thing. I don’t want to criticize them for intervening. However, I think that for the armed civilian, they might have benefited from quality training that might have avoided their mistakes. I’m not saying that I would do better but I hope I would understand cover and the challenge procedures for that kind of situation.
To conclude – Rob’s article and McKee’s are on the money. A serious CHL holder needs a touch of quality training. Not all of us have been in the service. If one argues for the RKBA, there is some responsibility that goes beyond being ‘shooting all ya life’.
So – Happy Thanksgiving To All!! Get stuffed!!
Thus, I like training. So what did Rob have say? He criticized several training trends and techniques:
Tactical Reloads – the bane of the IDPA match. Thinks they are not worth the trouble. I agree
Jiggle two hicap mags between your fingers and hope you don’t drop both. If you practice this 3500 times, you might do it fast – until you are under stress. Folks argue if the tactical is faster than the reload with retention (remove, stow, reload).
I don’t think we have ever found a case that involves a civilian in which the tac reload saved the day or when it was clear that a with retention reload would cause him or her to fail. It is much more likely that you will do a slide lock reload than a tac reload. Don’t waste so much time on. If you do have a lull, your normal motor skills can probably handle a reload with retention.
I remember doing a retention reload once in a shoot house during the NTI. It was a highly constrained circumstance. Since, I had cleared and handled the dummies, had no live opponent, and had a touch of cover before proceeding – I consciously decided to do a retention reload. It the usual FOG shoot out – if I am stuck with my 642, I’m probably going to clicky cylinder!!! If I have my Glock 19, it will be pretty intense to through 16 rounds. If I do, it will be a slide lock. That’s what I should practice – it would seem.
BTW, just to rant – the IDPA go to cover rule is also an artifact of the tac reload. I’ve seen military or police who say that reload where ever you are, on the run to where you are going. In a match where you know the COF, you can plan the tac reload and the move the cover. That going to happen in the mall when the loonies are shooting. The dreaded round dumping penalty is a natural consequence of the cover rule. Since you probably don’t know when you are going to reload against moving folk, as compared to the fierce cardboard attacker, that rule set should be dumped. Also, the 10 round limit. Too bad about California. Fight with the gun at capacity for SSP. CDP should take care of the 1911 folks ( which I do shoot).
So, bye – bye emphasis on tac reloads. I agree.
Press Checks – Is the gun loaded? Rob says that with reliable loaded chamber indicators – who needs it? Good point. Also, moving the slide a bit and guess what, the round gets mad and decides not to go back into the barrel and the gun won’t work! He saw a good deal of malfunctions with students doing that and folks covering themselves (and ME!). I saw a gentleman who when manipulating his slide turned his gun parallel to his belly (FOG!) instead of down range (wasn’t a press check drill but the same idea). He did it against despite being warned. The line of guys in class stepped back in sync in a move that would make the Rockettes proud. Needless to say, said student was chastised.
Rob recommends a test if the magazine is seated as sufficient. If you forgot to rack it (now who would do that?), or whatever it’s a good learning experience.
I learned one of my old AR-15 mags bellied up as I gave it a good tap. Three rounds came out of the ejection port. Well, that one is going into the box of old crappy gun stuff.
Announcing – I’M OUT!
Why? Reload the gun and shut up. It’s a critical incident reload. Let’s tell everybody you are out. Reload if you got ‘em. If you don’t – close the slide, the gun still may look intimidating. Get to cover.
Also, you can whack them with the gun as I learned in a class. So what is the purpose of yelling that you are out? Maybe a place in team tactics if you are truly out and your mates think that you can still shoot. Not really a FOG gun fight, though.
Speed Holstering – walking off the range and reholstering a loaded gun in a casual manner I take it. Rob argues that you reholster on the range after a threat assessment. That’s what we did at the NTI on several stages. You checked your six, etc., reloaded if needed and then reholstered with deliberation. We see reports of NDs at nationally know schools with reholstering probably that are rushed. One hole in my butt is enough.
When will you ever need to rush a reholstering? After you save the day and the cops arrive? It that case, if my gun is still out, they will probably tell me to drop it. And I will. I will not say: Officer, I am a trained FOG and I will reholster. Or I will put it down slowly as it is my $4000 Titanium 1911 Executor. I’m dropping it. At the NTI, we had a court room gun fight. The law arrived in force. I had shot a BG. I raised the gun over my head and yelled – GOOD GUY – and then followed orders.
I think analyses of training are needed. I’m lucky that the folks I’ve trained with have been careful, circumspect and not blood lusted. They teach technique and mind set with a reasonable viewpoint.
Training is an interesting issue. Most gun carriers don’t train. I came from a nongun environment so I wasn’t cursed by ‘being around guns since I was knee high to the outhouse’. That’s a point Tiger McKee makes in another excellent article in the current issue. Most CHLs just want the gun to carry in the car – where to most incidents happen? When you are driving?
Maybe training isn’t that important. Most DGUs as Kleck points out have no shots fired. My friend, colleague and list member, Dave Armstrong makes this point also. Probabilistically you don’t need training and you don’t need bullets! Haha. However, most untrained chortle on how they will win the archetypal single mugger gun fight that goes like this:
Mugger announces: I am a bad MF. I want your money.
FOG: No, you will not get it. Watch as I pull out my gun. I will kill you with one shot as that is all a Texan needs (heard by me in the big name gun store in Austin). Also, I am 6 foot and 250 pounds of Quack Duck Foo Yu training. I can handle myself.
Thus, the mugger is taken down with the inverted dragon flame move to eye or shot once in the head (as he stood still for you).
However, some FOF experience convinces me otherwise. The opponents can surround you despite your Code Chartreuse level. They can be quite big. You can miss them. Training suggests sometimes that a major hauling of ass is the best strategy (seen at an Insights FOF).
What about the esoteric gun fight? A terrorist attack with long arms, a lunatic with such? I think a raison d’etre for training is in part to handle the fight when deterrence of the single mugger goes awry or the opponent is not the money motivator singleton but a rampage killer. Two cases don’t make an unchallengeable cases but I can think of two esoteric gun fights that didn’t go well for the CHL good guy, even though they did help the innocent.
In Tyler, Texas – Mark Allen Wilson engaged David Arroyo who was on a rampage with a MAK-90. Wilson hit him with his 45 ACP and Arroyo went down. According to some reports after hitting Arroyo (who was wearing body armour) Wilson left cover and was shot. He didn’t fire or attempt a head shot. He hit the guy once. He probably had time for more shots but didn’t take them. Brendan McKown in the Tacoma Mall shooting failed to do the deed when he challenged the rampage shooter. He was shot and terrible injured. Both men were brave and did the right thing. I don’t want to criticize them for intervening. However, I think that for the armed civilian, they might have benefited from quality training that might have avoided their mistakes. I’m not saying that I would do better but I hope I would understand cover and the challenge procedures for that kind of situation.
To conclude – Rob’s article and McKee’s are on the money. A serious CHL holder needs a touch of quality training. Not all of us have been in the service. If one argues for the RKBA, there is some responsibility that goes beyond being ‘shooting all ya life’.
So – Happy Thanksgiving To All!! Get stuffed!!
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