Bad CCW Situation.

T

T.A.Sharps

New member
I had a near sticky situation tonight that I thought I would post about on here.

I had left my weapon at home. I was in a hurry and just forgot to grab the case. I wasn't planning on going anywhere shady, so I was not so worried about it.

I was going to meet the girlfriend after she got off work at 12:30am. I had finished what I was doing before then so I had about and hour or so to do nothing, and had nowhere to go.

I decided to go to the local grocery store and shop around for ideas for cheap meals. I wasn't going to buy anything, just thought at least it wouldn't be a waste of time.

I looked at about everything in the store, got some good ideas for cheap on the go meals, and I noticed I was being watched by one of the clerks.

At one time I said "Hi, how are you." to him to kind of let him know I wasn't being sneaky or anything.

A little after that I noticed he was still trying to discreetly watch me. Then a few minutes later he came by with the supervisor, or senior stock person, to confront me.

They asked me if they could help them, I said no I'm fine, and they started to say that I've been in the store for a while now and that basically they thought I was suspicious.

I explained to them what I was doing there, just killing time, shopping around. They explained they were worried because it was late and I guess it was unusual that I was in there for almost an hour. After that I just left feeling a little unwelcome, my girlfriend had called me a little before anyhow.

Nothing happened in that I would of had to defend my life...

Though, I couldn't help but wonder how things would have gone if they asked me to show them under my coat and lift my shirt and I had been carrying my weapon.

I would of had to refuse, and I couldn't tell them why, as I am not 100% if I can legally here in Iowa.

Just showing it is considered deadly force.

The only thing I could think of I could do if they didn't believe I was not shoplifting was to tell them to call the police, and that I could only explain to the cops.

Either way this seemed like it could of been a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, getting way out of hand if I had carried this night.

Has anyone had a situation arise like this?
 
If you're not sure of the legality to carry, it behooves you to check thoroughly, sir. As for the clerks, if they kept giving grief, move on, and say goodbye, like you did, and don't return.
 
Though, I couldn't help but wonder how things would have gone if they asked me to show them under my coat and lift my shirt and I had been carrying my weapon.
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Here's how it would go:

Supervisor or clerk: "Can I take a look under your coat?"

You: "No."

They can ask you to leave their store, but they have no power to search you. Even if they had called the police, all the police would likely do (once they'd established you'd committed no crime) is escort you out of the store as per the employee's request. Providing, of course, that you were carrying legally.

As to whether or not you would have been legal to carry, that is a pretty simple matter for you to figure out. Do you hold an Iowa permit to carry a concealed weapon? If not, then the answer is "no." If you do, then the answer is "depends." Every state has some intricacies that you will need to know.

Know the law, and don't break it. If the law is bad, try and change it.
 
I wasn't planning on going anywhere shady, so I was not so worried about it.
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If I could accurately predict when and where I might need a weapon, I'd go buy a winning lottery ticket. "Shady" happens all by itself sometimes.

Sure, you can play the odds of not needing a gun, but someone has to make up the bad side of the statistics.
 
Next time buy something even if it is just a candy bar. Remeber if you are in a buisness hangin out and not buying anything it is called loitering, which is a ticketable offense if they should decide to call the police.
 
Remeber if you are in a buisness hangin out and not buying anything it is called loitering, which is a ticketable offense
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I'm guilty of "loitering" in Radio Shack whenever I have to go shopping with my wife. If there were a gun store near by, I'd be guilty of loitering there too.:D

I really can't blame store clerks for being edgy and overly cautious these days. If it's late at night and I saw that a store clerk was edgy because I was just mulling around his store, I'd do my best to assure him that I mean no harm, ask him if he wants me to leave, etc. I figure I'm a guest in that person's store, and as a guest, I don't like to overstay my welcome if I'm making the owner uncomfortable for some reason. Just common courtesy.

Note: this really should be in the Tactics or General Discussion forum.
 
Wow... lot's of stuff going on here.

Though, I couldn't help but wonder how things would have gone if they asked me to show them under my coat and lift my shirt and I had been carrying my weapon.

I would of had to refuse, and I couldn't tell them why, as I am not 100% if I can legally here in Iowa.

Just showing it is considered deadly force.
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I'm assuming that you question whether it would be considered brandishing or open carrying if they were to see your gun and NOT whether it was legal for you to be carrying. If I'm wrong, then the conversation will need to go in a much different direction.


I think you really need to spend some time thinking about situational awareness. There are at least 3 main components to situational awareness and you appear to have overlooked 2 of them.

1) An understanding of what types of situations yield what types of threats. You going out @ 12:30 am is typically a much greater risk then going out at 12:30pm. Spending significant time in a convenience store @ 12:30am is a much greater risk then spending the same time @ 12:30pm.

2) Being aware of what is going on around you. This is pretty self evident.

3) Being aware of the impact your presence and actions are having on what is going on around you. Your actions of loitering had, rightly or wrongly, elevated their perception of a threat to them, YOU. Couple that with the time of day and they have, in their mind (as well as most reasonable people), a real threat on their hands, one that just hasn't taken action against them, yet. In truth, I think it was selfish and irresponsible to escalate the situation to alleviate your boredom.

Please don't take this as an attack.... it is not meant as such. I'm only trying to help keep you and others safe.
 
I can fully understand why the clerks are a bit "edgy". For example in my old hometown (no longer) reading the local papers, tells me of a crazy who has been holding up the convenience stores late at night with an Uzi, no less. He hit 3 in one week.
I have never worked in one, but you can bet your boots, if I did, I'd be packing regardless of the store policies. Especially, late night shifts.
 
Don't leave home without your gun, everyplace is shady at midnight.
All the rest is just the stuff of everyday life, take it as it comes, deal with it at that moment and don't fret over it.
 
Would it really have been "brandishing" in the eyes of the law if... When he was asked to lift his shirt, he first premtivly said, "sure. I will. I have no mechandise and I don't need to hide that, but first be it known that I'm licened to cary. And don't want to alarm you." Or handed over his permit card first? Something along those lines? Would that be illegal at that point? I'm now currious. Please guys, be gentle. I feel like somebodies about to call me an idiot for even sugesting that idea.
 
T.A.Sharps said:
I would of had to refuse, and I couldn't tell them why, as I am not 100% if I can legally here in Iowa.

Just showing it is considered deadly force.
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Would you care to please post the statute? Iowa is an open carry state (with a ccw license). You can walk around with the gun on your belt in plain view, if you choose to, if you have a license. In fact, outside of a municipality, no permit is required for open carry.
 
Good catch NavyLt. What's with this guy then?!:eek::confused::mad:
Is he some kinda smuck!? At first this seemed like a great question. But not if the laws of iowa ALLOW you gun to be seen! Perhaps he doesn't "legally" cary? Or if he does he doesn't know his own states law!? Err, I'm disapointed now.:(
Well i'd still like my question answered assuming it's in a state with no open cary.
 
killoften,

A lot of CC only folks believe the same thing. Heck, I've heard the same thing about Washington State and Washington State is a completely free open carry state with no permit required whatsoever (outside the vehicle) and complete state preemption prohibiting local governments from restricting the open carry of firearms. It's a belief that is perpetuated a lot by CCW instructors and usually by LEO as well. LEO usually doesn't like dealing with the MWAG call so they tend to push their personal opinions under the color of law. The brandishing myth is a common one.
 
Would it really have been "brandishing" in the eyes of the law if... When he was asked to lift his shirt, he first premtivly said, "sure. I will. I have no mechandise and I don't need to hide that, but first be it known that I'm licened to cary. And don't want to alarm you." Or handed over his permit card first? Something along those lines? Would that be illegal at that point? I'm now currious. Please guys, be gentle. I feel like somebodies about to call me an idiot for even sugesting that idea.
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In regards to your question and the situation. First, the store management asking someone to show empty pockets, empty shirt, etc is actually performing a search. Store management has no legal authority to enforce such a search. I believe they could verbally detain a person with RAS of shoplifting until the police arrive, but could not physically detain someone nor enforce a search requirement.

If the person voluntarily decided to submit to the search, exposing the gun in this matter could in no way be considered brandishing. The act of exposure would be at the request of the person to whom the gun would become visible. So long as the gun was not removed from the holster, and, in Iowa, the carrier had a license, no prosecution against the carrier would come close to sticking, IF the truth were told. NOW, if there was a videotape of the encounter, AND the manager lied and said that they approached the carrier in an attempt to inquire about shoplifting AND said that the carrier exposed his gun in order to intimidate them to leave him alone, AND the videotape looked like that is what actually happened, AND there were no witnesses to back the carrier's story, THEN a conviction may be possible.

Two instances where I have personally refused to interact with store management - the false alarm on the theft detection system at the door. I am leaving the store, the detector goes off, I have a receipt for everything I bought, I just keep on going. They can call the cops if they want to, but I am under no obligation to cooperate with them to straighten out an error in their system. Second instance was during Christmas time a local Wal-Mart instituted a receipt check at the door. The poor old guy at the door tried to get me to stop to show him my receipt. I was in a hurry when he said I had to stop and show my receipt. I replied that I did not have to stop, and I wasn't going to stop. He said, "But you have to!" I said, "No, I don't have to and if you think I do then feel free to call the police."

It takes RAS for a "citizen's arrest" as well as for a police arrest. If store management detains a shoplifter or a law abiding citizen they are conducting a citizen's arrest and better have RAS. A shopper enganged in legal behavior, such as open carrying a firearm where legal to do so, even though might be considered to be abnormal, is not reasonable evidence of illegal activity; neither is shopping for an amount of time longer than management would think is normal.
 
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