Back up guns, a few thoughts.

T

tackdrivr

New member
Friends,

A few thoughts on BUGs from prior training evolutions:

*Notes from March 04.*

A few observations from last nights workshop.

The focus of the curriculum was support side shooting with both the primary and back up guns with attention given to the diagnostic vs. non diagnostic method to clear primary weapon stoppages.

1. Type one malfunctions: Type ones were set up using snap caps. The shooters didn't know the location of the snap caps in their magazines. Both shooters had the same set up. The format was man on man on paper and steel targets.

Observations: There wasn't any noticeable difference in time between the diagnostic type one clearance vs. transition to back up gun.

2. Emergency reloads. Transition to BUG was significantly faster both in dry practice and during firing drills.

Advantages: The non diagnostic approach (BUG) offers a single solution to multiple stoppages.

1. Primary weapon is inaccessible, fight for the gun.
2. Primary is out of ammunition.
3. Primary is out of your control.
4. Primary has malfunctioned or jammed.
5. Primary has failed mechanically.(broken gun)

Moreover, the mental focus stays on the fight and not on diagnostics. Even if the malfunction can be quickly diagnosed the non diagnostic method doesn't rely on decision making branches, high brass, low brass, no brass etc.

Disadvantages:

1. Climate. Clothing, especially in the work place, may make carrying a back up gun or even a full size primary unpractical.

2. Additional time must be spent for training and skills maintenance. (support side shooting)

3. User comfort. The bigger the bat belt the less likely it will be worn.

Conclusions. At this point in time the end user should decide if the benefit is worth the investment in training time. IMHO the advantages out weigh the disadvantages, but individual life styles and environments may have a greater bearing on the decision to carry addition hardware.

At the conclusion of the workshop the general consensus was that it is a viable option, but may not be for everyone.

*Notes from this past weekends class.*

1. The transition to back up guns was on par with clearing a type one. We took two of the fastest shooters and put them into a relay with several shooters who were running BUGs. We set up type ones and the fast guys ran the drill free style. There really wasn't any noticeable difference in engagement time. Keep in mind that the guys running BUGs had very little to no experience with the transistion to BUG or with support side shooting until this class. Once the skills are dialed in through countless repetition I suspect it may be faster than clearing a type one.

2. The transitioning to BUG in much quicker than the ER and light years ahead of a type three.

3. The transition to BUG addresses a mechanical failure of the primary gun and well as a fight for the primary gun.

4. The transition to BUG addresses the primary gun being hit during the fight.

I realize that most non LEO folks don't carry a BUG, but IMHO once you train in these techniques you just might change your mind. Many who attended this class will be purchasing 5 shot wheel guns or the new Kahr PM series guns.


HTH

Fred Darling www.wct.4t.com
 
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Here's a picture of the support side transition to back up guns. If the primary doesn't fire for any reason the primary is brought in to the close contact position as the back up gun is presented. It's a very smooth and quick transition.

HTH
 

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I once heard it phrased eloquently:

"If I'm ever in the middle of a gunfight and hear any sound other than *BANG!* when I pull the trigger, I'm not going to stand there like a duck in thunder trying to figure out whether my gun is empty, jammed, or broken; I'm going to drop it like a live grenade, pull out my backup, and keep shooting. If I run out of ammo for the backup, then I'll worry about getting my primary back into action, as well as if my insurance is paid up." :eek:

Not sure how much I agree, but the speaker was a crusty old federale who knew his way around both his primary and the J-frame that was perpetually on his ankle...
 
Interesting and insightful observations. While not part of your workshop, I would like to offer a couple of other considerations about backup guns.

1. Backup guns are usually of a lessor caliber than the primary gun and hence don't have the stopping power of the primary guns. Some folks manage to carry a backup of the same caliber, but in a shorter barrel configuration and hence reduced velocity and reduced performance.

2. Backup guns are usually a different configuration from the primary gun. For example, the primary is a Sig but the backup is a revolver. Some people manage to carry smaller versions of the primary, such as full-szied 1911 as primary and officer's 1911 as backup, but this practice seems fairly rare.

3. Since backups are often of a different caliber and configuration from the primary guns, ammo and mags cannot be interchanged. If the primary (Sig) goes down early in the fight and you transition to your 5 shot revolver (say .38 spl), the spare mags and unused ammo for the Sig isn't going to be helpful when the backup runs out of ammo.

4. Few shooters are comparably proficient in shooting with both the primary and backup.
5. Few shooters are comparably proficient in other aspects of the backup such as reload and malfunction clearing.
6. Even when folks train with both their primary and backup guns, few train offhand with their backups. One reason guns often go down in fights is that they are struck by incoming rounds and these strikes may significantly damage the strong hand such that it is not functional. This happened at the FBI Miami shootout where one of the agents was attempting to reload using his injured primary hand and was unsucessful and seemed to do about as much good as loading bone and bloody tissue as much as ammo into the revolver.

While nobody really ever expects to need to go to their backup gun after something has happened with the primary, but it does happen. When it does happen, the situation has undoubtedly gone very badly. Without the use of the more powerful primary that is more proficiently shot by the person accessing the BUG, it becomes all that much more critical that the BUG be used in the absolute best manner possible. This is rather ironic that as the situation declines, one would like to access more firepower and not less firepower, but the BUG is usually less firepower.

So the consideration of BUGs involves many issues and quite likely more than what goes into the primary gun.
 
If the primary is a fairly compact piece, a New York reload can be carried serving both as NYR and BUG. Some people might carry two service size pieces depending on whether they see it as an inconvenience - or asset.
 
I've never bought into the concept that a BUG needs to be a smaller, less powerful weapon. As Double Naught said, if the need for it arises, things have taken a turn for the worst real bad, real fast. A second weapon must also be 110% reliable. That is why some folks choose a DA revolver instead of a small .32 or .380 auto.

I've also never agreed with the, "It's too hot and I can't conceal two guns." excuse. This is what I carry on my belt (folders in front pockets) every day of the year -- in ARIZONA!

Denny
 

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I've also never agreed with the, "It's too hot and I can't conceal two guns." excuse. This is what I carry on my belt (folders in front pockets) every day of the year -- in ARIZONA!
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Denny,

You appear to be a very well dressed man about town. :)

We do hear quite a few excuses about why folks don't carry a second hand blaster, but once they train up the advantages usually out weigh the disadvantages.

In the case of the DA revolver you simply present the pistol and press the trigger. Not much of a cross training issue here. We load out with Winchester target wad cutters. This load has a good reputation for defense yet has minimum recoil even in the light weigh revolvers.

The main theme of this curriculum was to be able to present the primary gun with either hand along with keeping the gun running and loaded. Once the shooters skills ramped up we introduced the support side BUG.

I appreciate your comment folks.
 
Interesting thread. How were the back-up guns carried in your seminar?

Were there any issues using the support or "weak" hand to engage with the back up gun as opposed to using the dominant hand? I like the idea of having the BUG for the weak hand but have heard a lot of people recommend going with a carry option with the dominant hand for both primary and backup (assuming somebody hasn't pumped a round through that dominant hand, of course).
 
Here's a little more back ground about this curriculum:

The basic overall theme is fighting bilaterally. The latest news letter from Tom Givens points out that over 75, 000 people survived after being shot.(FBI, 2000.) While we don't know at what point in time (during the fight) the wounds were received or to what anatomical location, we do know that one can continue to fight and that most gun shot victims survive. The likely hood of being shot in the hands and/or arms is high due to weapon fixation, (visual focus on the other guys gun) and we've seen that in shoot houses and simulations time and time again. Moreover, the gun is covering the thoracic cavity in the firing position.

Thus, the justification to learn the skills are:

1. Wounded shooter.
2. Non diagnostic malfunctions. (BUG)
3. Close contact emergency shooting.

One of the shooters commented that he didn't like bilateral shooting, but he did feel it was an important skill. If you're hit early on in the fight, or moreover, being hit is the start of the fight, one handed skills could mean the difference between life and death.

MK11,

To answer your question the BUG is carried in a left hand holster behind the primary ammo supply on the support side. Imagine a fighter who only throws rights or lefts. I think most folks probably wouldn't be very impressed. Bilateral skills do take time to develop and most folks don't devote enough time to one handed shooting skills.

We feel it is an essential skill element.

HTH
 
Since the thread has sparked some interest I'll cover the overall system in a little more detail.

The goal is continuation of fire until your adversary(ies) is no longer a threat. That may be one round or it may be several. The point being we just don't know.

If the primary fails to fire for any reason transition to the support side BUG and carry on. Once the threat is out of the fight continue to cover down with the BUG. (displace to cover and or all that other cool "tactical" dude stuff if you haven't already. :) )

While your're coving down with the BUG clear/reload your primary with the firing side hand. (if possible)

DNS made a good point about the BUG being less powerful than the primary. Thus, the BUG is a vehicle for seamless continuation of fire, and to get the primary back on line.

That said, several of the shooters were using two full size 1911s in the class. Other options would include transitioning to BUG and resolve the problem, transfer the BUG to the firing side, reload, et. al.

I just don't think there's any one way to do everything for everyone.

YMMV.
 
One of three as my primary, SW99, SW1911, Kimber Custom II (some inner components replaced by STI parts), Now as a Back up One of two Ruger SP101 .357, or Para-Ord P12-45. :D
 
Denny, isn't that just a tad bit of overkill?





I mean, why do you need TWO folders? :confused:


:D




Seriously, I'm glad to see your post. It Can Be Done!
 
We do hear quite a few excuses about why folks don't carry a second hand blaster, but once they train up the advantages usually out weigh the disadvantages.
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We also hear a lot of rationalizing about why people even NEED to carry two guns. I never felt a need to carry two guns while off-duty, and that was when I was living in Detroit....It just wasn't for me.
 
Marko,

That's true -- but I personally prefer the kind of allies who bring their own. :cool:

Fred,

Thanks for the interesting thread.

I know several people who carry a .38 snubby in an ankle holster as a backup to (usually) a semi-auto on the belt. To my way of thinking this is better than no BUG at all, but I can't see the transition from primary to BUG being an easy one when the BUG is in an ankle rig. I guess that's something most people simply don't think about.

In any case, you have admirably underscored the need for bilateral training. At the moment, one of the skills I'm working on is becoming equally proficient at shooting with my left hand as I am with my right. It was a real eye opener to me just how much learning left handed skills has helped my right handed shooting. Even if I never have to use the left handed skills playing for keepsies, I'm glad I've taken the time to work on it as it's been very worthwhile.

Sounds like a great class.

pax
 
I know several people who carry a .38 snubby in an ankle holster as a backup to (usually) a semi-auto on the belt. To my way of thinking this is better than no BUG at all, but I can't see the transition from primary to BUG being an easy one when the BUG is in an ankle rig. I guess that's something most people simply don't think about.
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:) I agree! Moreover, in my (arrogant) opinion, the only way to make an ankle carry work well is to, either, already be seated on the draw, or already be kneeling behind cover when you reach for that backup piece. In any other set of circumstances ankle carry is a potential accident waiting for a place to happen. (You know what they say about most of the rounds in a handgun fight – right!) If you’re, also, going to be switching between a semi-automatic pistol and a revolver, well, my suggestion would be to make sure you’re in nice and close before you start capping off rounds with that BUG. ;)
 
Great stuff

Fred,

This is great stuff, I am glad to see some good proactive training and I have come to expect nothing less from you. My only comment is that most people will find any excuse to carrying the minimum. As we define it the minimum should be a serviceable pistil, rugged knife and tactical flashlight. Mind you, that is just the minimum. Of course, folks are always encouraged to carry spare magazines, a back-up gun and a host of other items.

The point is, we reached out to many folks who didn't recognize they had secondary weapons available to them in such an emergency. As a result we created the Secondary Weapon Transitions course of instruction.

We didn't want the course to be soley about a back-up gun as the minority of folks carry a back-up gun. The class definately succeed in providing the individual with many sound options in cases of emergencies you described. Hopefully, with the introduction to courses such as yours and the SWT more folks will be inclined to carry more options, but again it is a personal choice based off the enviornment.

I must admit that there are times using our threat matrix we have jocked up with quite a bit of kit and there are times when I am lucky to have a compact pistol on me. Basically, there is a time and a place for everything, you need the training to be prepared.

In either case, I see nothing but good things from courses such as these. Good job and keep it up.
 
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