Back to the drawing board..... .45 carry gun

F

Futo Inu

New member
Guys, with all the new pistol models out there, and my failure to keep up with all the changes in the past couple years, I would like to tap into the wealth of knowledge here, and "start over" so to speak in my assessment of the ideal carry gun for me, starting the analysis from scratch, and really compared apples to apples, feature for feature, considering the old and new alike, as well as models not even out yet, but which will be out within 1 year.

This is for a concealed carry, defensive handgun.

First, my required criteria, then my weighted priority of concerns regarding the strengths/weaknesses, a few general thoughts, and a few known "contenders".

Required criteria:
1. .45 acp caliber (this is what I want)
2. Compact size, not "full" size - must be highly concealable
3. Full capacity/Double stack semi-auto - at least 9+1 (BTW - I COULD consider a single stack IF the model so outweighs the others in the given criteria below that it renders capacity of minor importance- please convince me if you LOVE your single stack - obviously this helps in the shootability department because of the grip size)
4. NOT a Ruger or S&W - obvious reasons

Weighted Priority of strengths/weaknesses

1. RELIABILITY - 90% - Far and away, this is the most important criteria for me - I want something that runs and runs on ALL ammo types, from ball to flying ashtrays, from strong hand to weak hand, from "strong wrist" to god forbid, "limp wrist" - This pretty well is the ONLY criteria (beyond the "musts" above), so it may be the deciding factor in choosing only 1 pistol, unless there are a few equally reliable ones; then I'll consider the weight of the 10% encompassing the remaining criteria.

2. SHOOTABILITY - 3% . This takes into account several factors, such as natural pointing angle (e.g. Glocks point too high for me - I want more of a 1911 angle), low felt recoil, low muzzle flip, etc. - a natural shooter, in other words. I have smallish to medium-sized hands, but for some reason though, the fat boy G30 feels good, so...

3. "CARRY-ABILITY" - 3%. This takes into account light weight, smallest dimensions (relatively speaking, as AMONG compacts), etc. Should be comfortable all day long.
3. DURABILITY - 1% - I want a quality gun that will really hold up.

4. SECOND STRIKE CAPABILITY - 1% - is preferred, for obvious reasons. (obviously, this favors true DAs, not SAs and internal striker guns)

5. CONCAVE TRIGGER GUARD FRONT - 1% - I greatly prefer a trigger guard front which is concave or at least "sqaure", not rounded/convex, because I am in the habit of using my weak hand index finger to pull back on the trigger guard for control, to lessen muzzle flip.

6. AVAILABILITY OF ACCESSORIES/PARTS - 0.5% - obvious reasons

7. GOOD VALUE - 0.5% - A low priced handgun, like the Tauruses, if they meet the other criteria, can't hurt.

-Now, I don't need laser/light rails, etc. - this is just a standard carry gun.

-Notice that accuracy is not on the list. Sure I want an accurate gun, but I am going to assume, rightly I'm sure, that any good gun that meets the other criteria are going to have plenty good accuracy for defensive shooting (this ain't a competition gun).

-Please don't say shoot them all and choose the one I shoot best, because I can with practice get good at shooting any gun which meets my criteria, particularly reliability. For example, I am fairly handy with my current carry, the G30, notwithstanding that it points too high for me. Sure, I could prolly be a smidge better in high stress situations with a smaller grip angle, but I am perfectly comfortable with shooting the Glock (IF it feeds :) )

-Now, it may be the case that my G30 will still win, but I want to keep an open mind and switch to something better for me if it exists. I've had some reliability problems with the G30 with ball ammo, which I will not go into here - suffice it to say that I no longer trust it with my life (though this opinion could change after investigation if I discover that the problem was a bad ammo batch). In any event, whether or not "Mary Ann" (the G30) will still be my #1 gal when all is said and done, this is a good exercise to go through - just facts and analysis, not hearsay, baseless opinions, or advertising hype.

-Also, the model MUST come in a blued/black color. Stainless is beautiful, but in the case of accidental exposure of the concealed carry gun to the public, the less glare and chance to be "made", the better.

Some possible contenders (not meant to be exhaustive):

1. The new Kimber compact double stack polymer frame - I think it's called the Ultra 10 or something. Me likes....though obviously, no one has experience with it yet.
2. G30
3. USP compact

What am I forgetting? What Taurus models meet the criteria, if any? What about the new polymer Springfield and HS pistols - they come in compact double stacks? Anyway, please chime in, if you have any actual experience, especially if you've owned/shot two or more of those that meet the criteria, and especially if you have some in-depth knowledge about reliability, have tried shooting these weak-handed, limp-wristed, and with all ammo types. I hear good things about the HK reliability, but does it REALLY and TRULY have an edge in that department over the others? If so, which others, and with what limitations (any ammo it DOESN'T like, etc?) Thanks in advance!
 
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Well...

...the "9+1" requirement kinda narrows the list right on down, don't it? ;) There goes the P-245 from SIG and its' distant cousin, the SIG/Mauser M2. The Glock 36 is out, as are conventional single-stack Officer's Model or Commander 1911's.

You've pretty much slimmed it down to the following:

1) Taurus PT-145.
2) Glock 30.
3) Various double-stack 1911 compacts.

Of the bunch, you couldn't give me a Taurus Millenium, or a ParaOrd P-10 for that matter.

If you don't mind polymer, I'd go G30; I like mine a lot. If you're more a traditionalist, a double-stack Officer's Model, like the Springfield or the Para P-12, perhaps?

Edit: Noting how stoked you are on reliability with a wide variety of bullet types and power factors, let's just skip baby double-stack 1911's and say you've pretty much self-selected a Glock 30. Hope you enjoy your purchase. ;)
 
Well, I would give your Glock 30 another chance. Run a couple hundred rounds of your carry ammo through it and see if it jams. If not, it's a very nice little package.
The Para Ordnance P12 is a very good little carry gun also, I've had three of them and the only reason I don't still have one is that I decided that I could carry a full size 1911 just as easily and do so.
I have no experience with the Kimber Ultra Ten polymer or any other polymer frame Kimber, so can't help you there.
I do like the Kimber Compact Stainless Aluminum, but you would be limited to 7+1 carry capacity, maximum (and that's with Wilson mags).
I don't think much of the HK USP Compact in 45---it seems overly bulky and too limited in capacity for that bulk.
Good luck...but I think you should give the Glock 30 another shot.
 
Tamara, what about the HK? (ok, 8+1 is good enough). And is the Sig so good as to outweigh the capacity thing, IYO? And plz tell, why wouldn't you take the Taurus or Para? (I was JUST going to give you one of each, but I guess not now.... :) ) So would you say that there is a CONSENSUS that the baby double stack 1911s don't feed with all ammo types, or just YO? Guys, please elaborate with any specific facts you might have. Thanks.

Come to think of it, if 8+1 is good enough, why on earth wouldn't 7+1 be? Hmmm. Well, let's loosen the discussion a little to include single stacks, for the sake of argument. Would you say that single-stacks are flat out more reliable, on average, in all semi-auto types? Or only 1911 types? Hmmm - if 8 rounds don't get the job done, don't know how 11 would. But it just FEELS better with 11 rounds. :) Well, is it scientifically proven that single stacks are more reliable? 8 shots from a single stack are far better than 1 or 2 from a double-stack, seems to me. Where's our reliability gurus? In fact, does anyone know whether the G36 is more reliable, on average, than the G30???

RikWriter, that's good idea, and I will (even though 200 carry rounds is expensive). But, I am just considering switching for those occasions where I may for some reason have to throw in cheap ball ammo to carry around. The frequent jams were with ball ammo. Also, because of the too-high-pointing thing, and lack of second-strike capability. Otherwise, MaryAnn sure is a sweet li'l thang.

And I suppose it would be overkill to bring up Kimber vs. Springfields vs. Para in this thread, eh? :)

Edited: Eric, buddy, thanks, but which single stacks would YOU recommend: 1911, Sig, what? And your spare mag - is it carried in a combo holster/xtra mag pouch, or a separately attached mag pouch? We capacity freaks must go through this mental evolution, I suppose... And if I ulitmately go with say, an aluminum frame 1911, how much heavier are they really than polymer frame gun? Are they perfectly comfortable all day, or will the polymers actually feel more comfy at the end of the day?
 
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Lose the capacity requirement and you let in several options which are far more concealable than their double stack relatives. Thinner is more concealable, after all. Besides, since auto carriers should always have at least one spare magazine on hand, the perceived need for capacity is overrated.
 
As I read through your post, USP45c kept coming back to my mind over and over. I think that may be your best bet for a reasonably concealable, bulletproof .45 (if you're stuck on capacity).

The only other twist to throw in is Wilson Combat's new KZ45 compact, 9+1 in a 1911 format thats pretty small, yet not too thick (I've held the KZ45 full size). Only downside is it's not a proven design yet, as it's new, it's expensive ,and it's not on the market quite yet (get on the waiting list!). Oh, I guess that's 3 things. Good news is Wilson's customer service is supposed to be just flat outstanding. :)

Regards, and good luck (I'm in the same boat, but with a few twists in my priorities as you).

Cedric
 
The USPc 45 would have been my choice. Since you have reconsidered your round minimum (8+1 now ;) ) Give it a serious look.
100% reliable, light weight, compact, accurate, durable & lots of fun to shoot!
 
Cedric, that Wilson sounds quite intriguing. The pointability factor and grip size would beat the Glock, I imagine. Not to mention the looks. Sounds very good. You say it's a new design - do you know - is the magazine construction, etc. somehow different from the Kimber, Para, etc.?


P.S. Honestly, subconsciously, I think I'm looking for an excuse to go cocked and locked. :) But the HK sounds good, too.
 
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I dunno, my main beef with the USP 45 compact is that you get two less rounds than a G30 in a somewhat bigger package. Not only is it somewhat on the chunky side of compact, but the sharp and aggressive checkering is a little less than CCW friendly, too. (Also, IMHO, it's a nice $550-$600 gun, but the going rates of $750-$800 and up for it are just silly...)

If you were to deep six the capacity requirement, I'd take a close look at the P-245, Para's baby LDA's, or perhaps a good Officer's-size 1911 (Kimber/Springfield/Colt/etc.).

I'd start your search with the P-245. How many .45" holes do you need to put in someone, anyway? ;)
 
KZ45 compact

Yes, the magazines are propriatary. You have to get them from Wilson combat. It's a double stack, lightweight, polymer framed 1911, that is slightly blockier than a regular 1911, but in my hands a much better fit than Kimber's polymer 1911, any glock, and the sig 245. YMMV. BTW, my hand likes the feel of the Sig 220, 1911, CZ75, Sig 228, etc. Just to get an idea of where I'm coming from.

Go to www.wilsoncombat.com and take a looksie.

Regards,
Cedric
 
I'm kinda ignorant here Tamara; please bear with me - the P-245 is the Para as well, no? Or the Sig (the "P" is throwing me)? And what's wrong with the Para's, IYO?!?!

Well, I GUESS 8 holes is starting to get close to enough, but what if I take a job as a mall security guard? How am I going to fend off multiple bogies with supressive fire while climbing a wall with ninja boots and taking .308 rounds to the back, with only a measly 8 rounds? :)

P.S. The G30 is supposed to be a 10+1, but in practice, it holds 9+1, unless you want to spend all day jamming in the last round. What about the HK - is it also 7+1 in practice?

Cedric - the Wilson is making me drool - it's a beauty, alright. Do you suppose that double stack 1911s such as that are more reliable, on average with ball or jhps?

Edited: Ahh, the "Sig 245" is actually called the P-245 - k, gotcha.
 
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"Compact, highly concealable" and "9+1 capacity" are at pretty opposide ends of the .45 spectrum. Really narrows it down, anyway. The problem with the USPc .45 is that it's not really all that compact. I would probably look for a used S&W 4513 that was still in like-new condition (but that's because I like Smith autos, and I like stainless). Another good choice would be the Sig P245. Neither of those meet your 9+1 requirement, though.

I don't care for the short grips on the small Glocks.
 
The Sig 245 is smaller than the G30 or USPc. Although capacity is only 6+1 it can be 8+1 by using a Sig220 mag.
 
Why the 9 plus 1 requirement?

Haven't seen anyone recently who required that many rounds to stop a fight!

Most any of the single stack 1911-styles would still be my choice...in the commander size or smaller, easy to conceal and carry all day...quick to put into action and of course, we all know that any decent 1911 will shoot better than the shooter in most cases...

Otherwise, if you're still stuck on the # of rounds....the Glock 30 would have to be the choice.....on another thread started by "yours truly", there were a ton of posts and every single one of them said that they thought the 30 was one of Glock's most accurate, reliable and functional pistols...

IMHO:D
 
2. Compact size, not "full" size - must be highly concealable
3. Full capacity/Double stack semi-auto - at least 9+1
Click to expand...

I think this is a contradiction.

-Please don't say shoot them all and choose the one I shoot best, because I can with practice get good at shooting any gun which meets my criteria, particularly reliability. For example, I am fairly handy with my current carry, the G30, notwithstanding that it points too high for me. Sure, I could prolly be a smidge better in high stress situations with a smaller grip angle, but I am perfectly comfortable with shooting the Glock (IF it feeds )
Click to expand...

If that's the case, simply look at the compact .45s that offer whatever other features are important to you at a price you like.

I think the best way for you to decide on a pistol is to visit the manufacturer's web sites & discover what they offer; visit your local dealers & handle those which you have identified from the web sites, then return to a forum such as this one with a limited list (4 to 6 pistols) and ask for owners' experiences - not that we're an opinionated group or anything..... :rolleyes:

Happy Shopping!
 
I have a H&K compact in Variant #1 in 357sig. It has all the features i wanted in a CCW gun. You can't go wrong with H&K, Accuracy, Reliability are its main features.

It might be over priced for some, but how much is your peace of mind worth?

I also carry a Para P-14 ltd for a duty weapon, and have nothing but good things to say about this weapon. I would buy the LTD model if i were going that route.

Your best bet is H&K in 45 or GULP ... Glock model 29 in 10mm..:)

12-34 Hom.
 
Hmmm....the packable .45's I'd consider would certainly include:

- G30
- HK USP45c (I think the USP series are the best dbl-stack guns on the market. I have a full-size .40 and it's the most reliable gun I've ever seen.)
- full-size single-stack 1911 (why bother with a short bbl if you're IWB? They're all the same thickness anyway. JMB knew what he was doing, leave it be.)

I have no experience with the compact Sig, but the word around here is good, so give it a shot.

I know you said you don't want to hear the 'try 'em all out' line, but try 'em all out...really. How else would you have known that the G30 pointed high for you? There could be dozens of little quirks about each design that may or may not work for you personally that objective analysis like this is not going to reveal.

Happy hunting!

- Gabe
 
Don't forget the Beretta

Given the criteria of 90% reliability, my Beretta 8045 Cougar ought to at least get a mention. I have had mine for two years and fired Gold Dots, HydraShoks, and ball ammo through it routinely without a hitch. I've mixed magazines with a variety of ammos and never had a problem.

The grip on a Cougar is extremely comfortable, it fits the compact requirement, and carries an 8+1 capacity. At 10 yards it will print an easy 3" group off hand (a better shot than me would probably do much better), has the DA/SA capability you were claiming to want, double taps with ease, and has just about as light a recoil as a full size 1911.

They're not small guns, but they are concealable and mine rides easily on my hip in an Old World leather holster that fits it like a glove. The finish is durable, the action is smooth, it's got a trigger guard that'll hold your index finger if you choose to shoot that way, and it's a handsome gun.

As good a choice as any other, in my humble opinion.
 
45 Carry Gun

Already mentioned on here several times and for good reason, the Sig P 245 is my hands down pick of the ultimate carry .45. I love and carry both 1911's and Glocks justthe same but the little P 245 seems to fit your criteria the best and is my first choice. Hey its a Sig and the ammo capacity is a non issue. Hit them the first time and the party is over.
 
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