The branch davidians "fought" with a few officers. In fact they gunned a few of them down. The court they faced found that it was not illegal to use a reasonable amount of force (in their case deadly force, 'cause that's what they were faced with) to resist the illegal actions of the police. They were aquitted of murdering any BATF thugs.
Ayoob's Poor Case for DAO Triggers
- Thread starter Double Naught Spy
- Start date
The branch davidians "fought" with a few officers. In fact they gunned a few of them down. The court they faced found that it was not illegal to use a reasonable amount of force (in their case deadly force, 'cause that's what they were faced with) to resist the illegal actions of the police. They were aquitted of murdering any BATF thugs.
No matter what gun you use you can be taken to court. Now the title of the article was:
"Self-Defense & The Law A Court-Proof Trigger? The case for the Double-Action Only; 16 Case Reports."
So if I were to shoot someone with my 1911 and was taken to court, would it matter if the gun wasn't a DAO pistol or not?
That is what the title emplies. A court-proof trigger. It is not a stay safe and preventing accidental discharge, it was about the law and a lawsuit-proof trigger. Now if nowhere in the article does he show any proof of court cases won by people using a DAO or lost for not using a DAO, then the title is completly misleading.
"Pistol Design is important in court - sixteen cases show you why!" The story has not a single court case proving his title. If I bought SOF for that article I would demand a refund.
Prove it with a court case that was lost, that is what Ayoob failed to do.
I have heard of cops stumbling and shooting their DAO's. In that case it is the finger on the trigger that is the cause, not the trigger.
In what circumstance has someone got cleared of wrong doing because of a DAO?
In what case has someone been guilty/at fault because of not having a DAO that would have been prevented if the gun was a DAO?
Ayoob proved nothing. If the point was trigger pull weight, then a minimum weight is needed. If it is simply DAO, would para ordinance's guns qualify or are they too light?
If anything an accidental discharge of a DAO should show that it truly was not accidental. You have a better chance at proving a single action shot was an accident more than a DAO.
I agree with your point that a DAO might keep you out of court because it kept the gun from discharging, but that is not legal proof of why a DAO is better. I mean keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to fire will keep the gun from discharging, DAO or SAO.
16 reasons why a DAO is better. How a DAO might keep you out of court. But no where in the article does Ayoob prove how a DAO is "court proof".
I have heard of cops stumbling and shooting their DAO's. In that case it is the finger on the trigger that is the cause, not the trigger.
In what circumstance has someone got cleared of wrong doing because of a DAO?
In what case has someone been guilty/at fault because of not having a DAO that would have been prevented if the gun was a DAO?
Ayoob proved nothing. If the point was trigger pull weight, then a minimum weight is needed. If it is simply DAO, would para ordinance's guns qualify or are they too light?
If anything an accidental discharge of a DAO should show that it truly was not accidental. You have a better chance at proving a single action shot was an accident more than a DAO.
I agree with your point that a DAO might keep you out of court because it kept the gun from discharging, but that is not legal proof of why a DAO is better. I mean keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to fire will keep the gun from discharging, DAO or SAO.
16 reasons why a DAO is better. How a DAO might keep you out of court. But no where in the article does Ayoob prove how a DAO is "court proof".
From my little understanding of legal process I know that only appeals cases are recorded and not all of those. Appeals cases typically involve some alleged error on the part of the lower court and the appeal may completely overlook the substance of the original case. Therefore, you will likely never find a case reported that discusses the actual arguments brought forth concerning trigger pull, projectile, yada yada.
ANALOGY: When stores guarantee that they will give double the difference back if you can find the SAME model at a lower price, they know they will NEVER have to pay as you cannot find the same model because they assign the model number the manufacturer puts on the box.
Ayoob's (or anybody's) assertions are a non sequitur and hold about as much water as those store guarantees and they know it - or are remarkably stupid. I think the former. YMMVLook, Ayoob might not have even titled the article, it could have been the editor. Either way, it is a sensational title written to encourage more sales than a dry and correct title would have.
And even if he offered "proof" with more concrete examples, I doubt those who disagree with him are going to accept this proof. There is no proof with this kind of thing, just well argued opinions.
So why not just read and digest the ideas in the article? I think he makes some valid points that are worth considering, even if I don't think that DAO triggers are as universally useful as Ayoob seems to.
And even if he offered "proof" with more concrete examples, I doubt those who disagree with him are going to accept this proof. There is no proof with this kind of thing, just well argued opinions.
So why not just read and digest the ideas in the article? I think he makes some valid points that are worth considering, even if I don't think that DAO triggers are as universally useful as Ayoob seems to.
Actual cases that are tried and finished are recorded (cases are sealed if you are a minor). An appeal means more since it goes to a court with more jurisdiction than the original court.
A small town judge's cases are recorded, but when it is appealed to a court of appeals, that appeals court has jurisdiction over many smaller local courts. What they rule sets presidence in all the courts in its jurisdiction. That appeal, depending on the case, is set for all the courts in the jurisdiction so they are usually much more publicly availible to read (like on the internet) unlike a small court where the records are still public but may be in paper form and more leg work needed to see them.
I think Civil cases are the same way but I am not sure, I have only looked up cases involving either criminal cases or cases filed for or against the Government.
Anyway, Ayoob does not prove what the article title states. If you follow safety rules and keep your finger off the trigger, SAO or DAO does not matter much. Personally I do not like DAO because the trigger is too heavy, para's LDA (light double action) is great, but does that work with what Ayoob is talking about? I don't know.
A small town judge's cases are recorded, but when it is appealed to a court of appeals, that appeals court has jurisdiction over many smaller local courts. What they rule sets presidence in all the courts in its jurisdiction. That appeal, depending on the case, is set for all the courts in the jurisdiction so they are usually much more publicly availible to read (like on the internet) unlike a small court where the records are still public but may be in paper form and more leg work needed to see them.
I think Civil cases are the same way but I am not sure, I have only looked up cases involving either criminal cases or cases filed for or against the Government.
Anyway, Ayoob does not prove what the article title states. If you follow safety rules and keep your finger off the trigger, SAO or DAO does not matter much. Personally I do not like DAO because the trigger is too heavy, para's LDA (light double action) is great, but does that work with what Ayoob is talking about? I don't know.
I think a court reporter (person that sits with what looks like an adding machine) are required for any trial by jury.
The only thing I know of that will not get recorded is if a civil lawsuit is settled out of court between both parties. In which the case is withdrawn from court and a lot of times a contract is signed that says you will not discuss the outcome or what was agreed to in the settlement.
Often heard on the news as "the case was settled for an undisclosed amount"
The only thing I know of that will not get recorded is if a civil lawsuit is settled out of court between both parties. In which the case is withdrawn from court and a lot of times a contract is signed that says you will not discuss the outcome or what was agreed to in the settlement.
Often heard on the news as "the case was settled for an undisclosed amount"
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I found the magazine today and think I agree with you that the real lessons learned are
1 train with your weapon a lot
2 know your weapons trigger and
3 keep your finger off the trigger unless you want it to go bang.
I still think Ayoobs point is valid that some of the cases he cited could have been avoided if the shooters had heavier triggers but that does not excuse bad gun handling. (Nobody claimed the glocks cited had failed mechanicaly).
My other point is just because legal action did not result in conviction does not mean you got off free. My understanding is you could burn 50K+ in a trial without any trouble.
Just found the forum a few weeks ago and love it!!!
I found the magazine today and think I agree with you that the real lessons learned are
1 train with your weapon a lot
2 know your weapons trigger and
3 keep your finger off the trigger unless you want it to go bang.
I still think Ayoobs point is valid that some of the cases he cited could have been avoided if the shooters had heavier triggers but that does not excuse bad gun handling. (Nobody claimed the glocks cited had failed mechanicaly).
My other point is just because legal action did not result in conviction does not mean you got off free. My understanding is you could burn 50K+ in a trial without any trouble.
Just found the forum a few weeks ago and love it!!!
Double Naught Spy
New member
Lomshek, given that people have managed to shoot themselves with DAO revolvers while holstering, either via the trigger snagging as happened with Glocks on poorly designed Fobus holsters, or because their finger was still inside the trigger guard while inserting the gun, I am not inclined to believe outright that any of the events necessarily would have been prevented, or not. Ayoob simply does not provide enough information and in many of the cases, as I recall a couple were "observers in court" who passed on their opinions to Ayoob that the NDs would not have occurred.
I really liked Handy's description that if you stumbled and shot somebody with a 1911, you would go to court, but if you stumbled and the heavy trigger prevented you from shooting somebody, you would not go to court. That is a very convenient argument and I can offer a similarly convenient argument that is contrary and equally valid. If you stumbled with your heavy trigger DAO gun without a safety and shot somebody, you would go to court. If you stumbled with your 1911 with the safety that you had engaged or did not have engaged but had your finger off the trigger, then you would not go to court.
You can argue all you want about what you think Ayoob's point was. That is speculative and we are equally hindered by only having the information he provided and what I found was that the information he provided was hugely lacking and in error.
I did like the comment that maybe the editor changed some of his statements or titles. That is also a convenient argument and I have heard it before on Ayoob's other magazine articles. Strangely, the editors supposedly may be changing and sensationalizing his words on a regular basis and yet he keeps writing for the rags and there are never any corrections or comments by Ayoob stating the editor-induced mistakes.
As noted by Lomshek, one of the points that comes up is training and proper use of the guns involved. The article could just have well been written that it is necessary to have proper gun training and gun handling skills and here are several examples where people really did or could have screwed up.
I noticed that Ayoob conveniently left out the female officer ND in Las Vegas sometime back where her partner was trying to handcuff the suspect on the ground and she was "covering" (them both, it seems) with her gun when it discharged, missing both. The gun was apparently a Beretta 92 fired in double action. Regardless of what Ayoob claims, you can screw up on either side of the action type and under stress and with adrenaline going, a 5 or 8 pound trigger is almost inconsequential. This officer seemed to be the poster child for this.
Here is the link via packing.org
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/8980
I really liked Handy's description that if you stumbled and shot somebody with a 1911, you would go to court, but if you stumbled and the heavy trigger prevented you from shooting somebody, you would not go to court. That is a very convenient argument and I can offer a similarly convenient argument that is contrary and equally valid. If you stumbled with your heavy trigger DAO gun without a safety and shot somebody, you would go to court. If you stumbled with your 1911 with the safety that you had engaged or did not have engaged but had your finger off the trigger, then you would not go to court.
You can argue all you want about what you think Ayoob's point was. That is speculative and we are equally hindered by only having the information he provided and what I found was that the information he provided was hugely lacking and in error.
I did like the comment that maybe the editor changed some of his statements or titles. That is also a convenient argument and I have heard it before on Ayoob's other magazine articles. Strangely, the editors supposedly may be changing and sensationalizing his words on a regular basis and yet he keeps writing for the rags and there are never any corrections or comments by Ayoob stating the editor-induced mistakes.
As noted by Lomshek, one of the points that comes up is training and proper use of the guns involved. The article could just have well been written that it is necessary to have proper gun training and gun handling skills and here are several examples where people really did or could have screwed up.
I noticed that Ayoob conveniently left out the female officer ND in Las Vegas sometime back where her partner was trying to handcuff the suspect on the ground and she was "covering" (them both, it seems) with her gun when it discharged, missing both. The gun was apparently a Beretta 92 fired in double action. Regardless of what Ayoob claims, you can screw up on either side of the action type and under stress and with adrenaline going, a 5 or 8 pound trigger is almost inconsequential. This officer seemed to be the poster child for this.
Here is the link via packing.org
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/8980