I just used the .223 necked up to a straight walled .357 as the cases were free . I did a couple of bolt rifles and AR-15's . Mt best bullet was the .357 180 XTP .I went that route as the bullets were cheap and the sub sonic performance was much better than the 300 BO . For longer range the H .358 200 plastic tipped bullet work great . I did have to reinforce the stock . My friends and I have shot many pigs and a few deer with my rifles with good performance out to 200 yards .
Axis 2 in 350 [in it's own mind] Legend review
- Thread starter stagpanther
- Start date
stagpanther
New member
The felt recoil is pretty negligible, even without a brake doesn't feel more than a 5.56 AR IMO. However it is a bit "snappy" in muzzle flip IMO, again, no problem with a good fore-end hold, but that introduces "complexity" when I try to test for accuracy in hand-loads.
stagpanther
New member
8 to ten inches more snow tonight and might be dropping below zero ambient temps after the storm, but the proverbial calm before the storm, light winds this morning till the storm starts in earnest. Even though temps are barely above single-digits, I could be talked into it. 
I am sure the 350 Legend will do very well as a deer cartridge.
I have several friends who use Marlin M94s in 357 magnum and I set them up years ago when I was the 2nd CEO of Cast Performance (before the sale of the business to the new owners in Oregon) with our LBT 187 grain Gas Check Wide Flat Nose bullets. The typical loads from the 18.5" Marlins chronograph at about 1865 to 1925 FPS. My friend Randy (so far) has killed about 45 game animals with his, and I have been next to him for 32 of them. The effects of the 357 bullet are WAY better than some may believe.
Veral Smith, the owner of LBT Molds in Moyie Springs Idaho used to cut all our cavities for us at Cast Performance in those days. Veral has killed 7 elk with his Marlin M94 and the same bullet with the same powder charge and 100% have dropped inside of 20 yards and ALL have had exits.
The new 350 is going to be quite similar to the 357 magnum from carbine barrels and if you load a good bullet in it, the results will be the same. The Marlins I set up for Randy and John and Mike are scoped and shoot about 2 MOA. Randy has made the longest kill so far of the 3 of them. I was there next to him when he killed an antelope about 4 miles from my house. The shot was lasered at 307 yards and the antelope dropped after taking one step.
I am waiting for someone out there to try the heavy cast bullet in a 350L. The wide flat nose may or may not feed, so I am curious as to how well they will function in various rifles. But as to how they will work on game there is NO question to answer at this point.
I used the same bullet myself in 357 magnum handguns to kill 14 head of game so far, and out of my 6" barrels the bullet "only" go about 1265 FPS yet every single deer and antelope I have shot has dropped within about 3 seconds and most have dropped faster. All have been one shot kills.
Shooting the same bullet faster can't make it less of a killer, and cast hard, it doesn't break up on flesh or bone until the impacts get over 2350 FPS (tested from a 358 Winchester) That level velocity is not available from a 357 magnum, a 357 maximum or a 350 Legend.
So if anyone out there has a Legend and would test the bullets for function I would be grateful for feedback.
If you find the load to shoot well and work through the rifle you have I can recommend Veral's molds VERY highly. Shooting the LBT hard cast bullets is something you have to try to appreciate. Most folks I know who use them never go back to anything else. Veral can make them in any weight you'd like, but 175 to 190 seems to be in the "magic zone" for killing bigger game.
I have several friends who use Marlin M94s in 357 magnum and I set them up years ago when I was the 2nd CEO of Cast Performance (before the sale of the business to the new owners in Oregon) with our LBT 187 grain Gas Check Wide Flat Nose bullets. The typical loads from the 18.5" Marlins chronograph at about 1865 to 1925 FPS. My friend Randy (so far) has killed about 45 game animals with his, and I have been next to him for 32 of them. The effects of the 357 bullet are WAY better than some may believe.
Veral Smith, the owner of LBT Molds in Moyie Springs Idaho used to cut all our cavities for us at Cast Performance in those days. Veral has killed 7 elk with his Marlin M94 and the same bullet with the same powder charge and 100% have dropped inside of 20 yards and ALL have had exits.
The new 350 is going to be quite similar to the 357 magnum from carbine barrels and if you load a good bullet in it, the results will be the same. The Marlins I set up for Randy and John and Mike are scoped and shoot about 2 MOA. Randy has made the longest kill so far of the 3 of them. I was there next to him when he killed an antelope about 4 miles from my house. The shot was lasered at 307 yards and the antelope dropped after taking one step.
I am waiting for someone out there to try the heavy cast bullet in a 350L. The wide flat nose may or may not feed, so I am curious as to how well they will function in various rifles. But as to how they will work on game there is NO question to answer at this point.
I used the same bullet myself in 357 magnum handguns to kill 14 head of game so far, and out of my 6" barrels the bullet "only" go about 1265 FPS yet every single deer and antelope I have shot has dropped within about 3 seconds and most have dropped faster. All have been one shot kills.
Shooting the same bullet faster can't make it less of a killer, and cast hard, it doesn't break up on flesh or bone until the impacts get over 2350 FPS (tested from a 358 Winchester) That level velocity is not available from a 357 magnum, a 357 maximum or a 350 Legend.
So if anyone out there has a Legend and would test the bullets for function I would be grateful for feedback.
If you find the load to shoot well and work through the rifle you have I can recommend Veral's molds VERY highly. Shooting the LBT hard cast bullets is something you have to try to appreciate. Most folks I know who use them never go back to anything else. Veral can make them in any weight you'd like, but 175 to 190 seems to be in the "magic zone" for killing bigger game.
stagpanther
New member
The problem isn't the cartridge itself--but the confusion caused by the SAAMI specs submitted by winchester in my opinion. Between the range of specs for bullet diameter, headspace and case length I believe it's possible to get into trouble even when staying within those specs depending how all the tolerances stack up in whatever the gun it is you are using. Again, just my personal opinion, but a 9mm bore was not meant to have larger diameter bullets routinely fired in them. I could see the possibility where lead cast would be less consequential when engraving to the grooves than a jacketed or monolithic bullet. If the larger bullets were not an issue--my guess is the ammo manufacturers would be using them in their factory ammo. The only true 1.71 case I've found so far is made by Hornady.
reynolds357
New member
There is really no problem so long as you understand what Winchester intended. (Imho)They designed the cartridge to perform to what they considered ideal, but to meet cartridge regs in a couple states, the numbers on paper dont exactly match the actual cartridge/bullet. One of the states has already caught it, but ignored it. They said they would use stated dimensions by manufacturer and not actual measured cartridge/bullet dimensions.
stagpanther
New member
It's hard to explain--but you'll see once you start reloading for it. They foobarred it IMO. 
reynolds357
New member
There is no problem if yoy use 350 legend brass, 350 legend dies, and most importantly 350 Legend bullets. Winchester does not claim any bullet other than those marked 350 legend can be loaded for the legend. They mention potential problems of other bullets.
Other than Stag & myself, has anyone heard anything about mishaps with this cartridge ?
*We already know we have a brass problem (anomalous case length w/ one finished ammunition manufacturer, and overly-thin case web floor in another brass maker), But does anyone have firing-incident reports ?
*We already know we have a brass problem (anomalous case length w/ one finished ammunition manufacturer, and overly-thin case web floor in another brass maker), But does anyone have firing-incident reports ?
reynolds357
New member
None not caused by error. I have heard of mishaps with about everything else. Bunch with the 450 b.m.
Kluckle heads using 456 or 458 in it.
You load the 350 legend with a bullet that did not come out of a box that said "350 Legend" then you sre asking for problems
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stagpanther
New member
Quite so.
Winchester's 2 available bullets, plus Hornady's are .355
They are not .355 + .001, nor are they .355 + .002.
The bore reamer is identical to the 9mm Luger (with the same groove width and depth) but slower twist.
That math does not add up to .357.
If what they REALLY mean is don't use any bullets or ammo other than the 4 or 5 .355 flavors that are out there already--then by gum they should just say so (oh wait, the .357 straightwall hunting restrictions party might be over??) Based on the SAAMI specs they submitted it is at this very moment possible to buy brass that can conceivably be fired with inadequate case head support based on what I've found.
Sure, you become a wildcatter and squeeze larger diameter bullets down the bore with a pretty wide margin of safety for the most part (I've done it over a hundred times so far) if you are willing to take the risks. But it is going to be REALLY hard to find a load that produces consistent results as evidenced by wide variations in velocity and SD figures, again, based on what I've experienced so far.
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reynolds357
New member
Is that not what I said a few posts ago? In my opinion, it was intentional misnamed. I honestly dont care. I dint care that a .38 special and a .357 magnum are the same bore dia. I dont care that a .458 Win and a .460 Wby are the same bore. I dint care that a .375 H&H and a .378 Wby are the same bore. I dont care that a 280 Rem and a 284 Winchester are the same bore.
The "name game" dates way back.
stagpanther
New member
I get ya--but what I'm trying to express is a frustration with the utility of SAAMI specs in the first place as submitted by the manufacturer. The intent--at least as I understood that it at was supposed to be--was to provide a baseline for compliance for each cog in the firearms industry so that the final purchaser has some idea that they aren't going to blow themselves up when they first pull the trigger on the latest galactic megadeath cartridge released.
We have a problem.
Winchester itself says bullet dia is 357.
https://winchester.com/350-legend/faq
I would also offer that the SAAMI groove/bore of the 357Mag itself is 355/346 (which I might add is also that of the 9mm)
But we've been here before.....
.
Winchester itself says bullet dia is 357.
https://winchester.com/350-legend/faq
I would also offer that the SAAMI groove/bore of the 357Mag itself is 355/346 (which I might add is also that of the 9mm)
But we've been here before.....
.
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stagpanther
New member
The min bore and groove area in the 357 is larger than the 350L. I occasionally get some very tight groups with a .357 handload in the 350L--but it tends to very easily vary from one day to the next using the same load. My opinion is that even the slightest variations in timing can result in peak pressures having a dramatically different effect on the release and travel down the bore of the bullet. My labradar has captured quite a bit of data reflecting that with erratic velocities--sometimes lower charge weights having faster velocities than higher ones--or a sudden spike of a 100 fps or so within the same charge weight group being tested.
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stagpanther
New member
I personally do not believe that just because the SAAMI bore specs appear to be the same for both the 357 mag and the 350 legend on paper--that ergo you can use the same bullets and expect the same performance.
stagpanther
New member
I called an ammo manufacturer that makes 350 L ammo and asked them why their 350 L ammo uses a .355 bullet instead of .356 or .357. They explained it this way, while the specs do allow for a range up to .357, most bore reamers are likely going to be in the range of .355--in fact a bit less than that. Their decision was that the optimal choice--for both safety and consistency, was to use the .355 diameter rifle bullet.
Lowest common denominator, Stag -- another reason that bottleneck ammo manufacturers also load to lowest headspace dimension too -- so it fits in everything.
(Note that Federal loads 0.356 however -- go figure )
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6765403&postcount=152
But in our case, I think it's why we call ourselves handloaders. We tailor thing to what works best for the rifle in our hands.
(Note that Federal loads 0.356 however -- go figure
)https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6765403&postcount=152
But in our case, I think it's why we call ourselves handloaders. We tailor thing to what works best for the rifle in our hands.
stagpanther
New member
I can only "wish list it" at the moment--but I put in for one of KAK's "358" legends for that reason. BTW--I'm still VERY curious about the specs on your new CMMG set-up.
