Avoiding animal diseases and parasites when hunting for food

[6.5swedeforelk]

There is a lot to be said for paying a skilled processor to render the animal IMHO.

And expose your well-cared for game to the risk of cross-contamination?

Standing at the sideline of dozens of meat processors, I have seen little sign of between job sterilization of knives, grinders, hooks and cutting surfaces.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Could this be an argument against using head/neck shots to kill the game?

I think it is an excellent argument not to use your local game processor and throw away that band saw used to slice steaks (yuk).

It seems to me that when processing my own game, the carcass provides an effective means of removing surface gunk. By that I mean, once skinned and hung for a few days, the surface of the meat dries and with good technique can be removed from the primals and yield nice clean meat.

And sure, many people use a vinegar solution to cleanse their meat and I hear people say they hose down carcasses with the garden hose. I don't cotton to latter technique - it seems to me that by hosing down a carcass, one simply spreads any surface contaminants to other uncontaminated parts. Makes no sense to me....

When we are talking about fluids and brain matter, these materials are not going to be absorbed into the meat underlying the surface tissue.

Shoot heads and necks, nix the processor, bone out your meat, don't eat it raw and don't give raw bones or meat to your dogs either.

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's say that you take a head or neck shot. Once dead, how does anything move through an animal? How would prions get into the meat?

I don't "play" with the wound. I don't touch it; no reason to. Okay, field dress the deer; I don't cut into the spine at all. Back at camp or at home, hang the deer, skin the deer from below any neck wound, cut off the shoulders and hams. No cuts into the spine. Backstraps, inner tenders. The carcass goes for coyote bait.

My only possible exposure that I see is when I take a carpenter's hand saw and make an angling cut of the front of the skull so I can nail the antlers to a garage rafter. But I don't lick the saw.

 

[YARDDOG(1)]

"And expose your well-cared for game to the risk of cross-contamination?
Standing at the sideline of dozens of meat processors, I have seen little sign of between job sterilization of knives, grinders, hooks and cutting surfaces."

^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've butcher all animals I harvest. I've yet to see a deer without ticks on him/her in Fl or SE Ga..

I do neck shosts if at all possible & cut all horns off of deer ; )
Y/D

 

[Pond James Pond]

Let's say that you take a head or neck shot. Once dead, how does anything move through an animal? How would prions get into the meat?

Given the forces that cause temporary and permanent cavities and the size of those cavities when using the likes of 30-06, apply that pressure to CSF and I'm sure some can be forced to surrounding tissues.

It could then get to the muscle tissue when the butchering blade cuts through fascia and epimysia, taking some of the fluid with it.

I don't know how much prion exposure is needed, nor how far CSF can be sent through the internal cavities under the pressure of hydrostatic shock, but I can see how the above could happen.

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Art Eatman:

Let's say that you take a head or neck shot. Once dead, how does anything move through an animal? How would prions get into the meat?

I think it's simple cross contamination Art. If the Prions are contained within the CNS tissue, then not disturbing that tissue means less chance of cross contamination. Blowing open the skull cavity or shattering the spine would greatly enhance the chance that the prions would get onto the carcass or the meat. It also enhances the chance of contaminating the tools used to field dress and butcher the animal by exposure to the prions. The links provided give the reasons for this. Because Wisconsin encountered CWD before many other areas in the country and has done extensive research and study on the disease, they are considered by many to be a good authority on the subject and have been a model for other states where the disease has been recently discovered. They also recommend against the leaving of carcases for coyote and other scavengers as they spread the carcasses over a larger area and increase the exposure of healthy deer to the prions that are nearly impossible to kill by normal processing.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/disposal.html

One can believe what they want, and I know many think they know more about the disease than the experts. But even the experts know very little about it, that's why they advise what they do. Because the disease has yet to evolve and manifest itself in humans, many of the recommendations are to prevent unnecessary exposure of the prions to other deer and in the long run, the exposure to humans. One needs to remember, that at one time "mad cow" had never manifested itself in humans either.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Without judging all processors or issuing a broad indictment for them: I do not want any game I have harvested to come close to one and personally have never used one for anything but grinding burger that I have already cut.

It is my belief and experience that home processed game is far beyond anything produced by the processor as far as quality eats.

I understand, some folks don't have time, or don't have facilities, or don't know how...

These are excuses, and bad ones, for overlooking the most important part of your hunt. You have time to scout, you have time to target practice, and you can afford all the hunting gear.

If you made the minimal investment required for butchering (knives, cutting boards, wrapping paper and perhaps grinder), how many seasons of not paying the processor would it take to pay for that gear?

If you involve your family in the process, how much faster can the chore be done and how much more will they appreciate what is on their plate?

If you don't know how, there are plenty tutorials available in many different forms - books, articles, dvds, etc.

If you process your own game, YOU set the standards for: cleanliness; what is edible; what is waste; and most importantly - what is quality.

If you set your standards high, you will never worry about "Gee.. is this gonna make me sick?"

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Given the forces that cause temporary and permanent cavities and the size of those cavities when using the likes of 30-06, apply that pressure to CSF and I'm sure some can be forced to surrounding tissues.

It could then get to the muscle tissue when the butchering blade cuts through fascia and epimysia, taking some of the fluid with it.

I don't know how much prion exposure is needed, nor how far CSF can be sent through the internal cavities under the pressure of hydrostatic shock, but I can see how the above could happen.

Seriously? FSS...

There are legitimate concerns here, but throwing out bull puckey like this does not help. A scientist or team of scientists could spend an entire lifetime trying to
1) create above stated scenario; or
2) prove the above stated scenario is possible to create; or
3) that the above stated scenario once created, leads to anything conclusive.

Here is a thought....

If anyone is that concerned or obsessed with prion contamination, they should at least not harvest any sick looking critters, or not hunt in areas known to have documented cases of CWD or other forms of the disease.

Is there another level of common sense I am missing out on....?

 

[Pond James Pond]

There are legitimate concerns here, but throwing out bull puckey like this does not help.

Funny.... it is pretty much exactly the process of contamination described here:

Blowing open the skull cavity or shattering the spine would greatly enhance the chance that the prions would get onto the carcass or the meat. It also enhances the chance of contaminating the tools used to field dress and butcher the animal by exposure to the prions.

But I don't see you getting your underwear in a twist about that....

If blood can spread from a ruptured vessel to surrounding areas, I fail to see why CSF would not do the same in the event of a rupture.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Okay - so lets define the positions:

One position asserts that blowing the head off of a deer will get nasty material ON the carcass.

That is bull puckey, unless he removes the hide and rubs it on the meat. Once the hide is off so is the brain matter, or spinal fluid.

Another positions asserts that matter or fluid will be forced INSIDE the meat itself, by forces of nature relative to muzzle velocity and who knows what other variables, plus the knifes edge may contact the material and further spread it to other parts and on and on...

Both arguments assume that ANY animal be treated AS IF it were sick and capable of making Human Beings sick.

Are the arguments plausible, or possible, or probable?

All I know is that for myself - I have not seen first hand a person getting sick from Prions. Still, I do not go out of my way to maximize any risks by wallering my meat through brain matter/spinal fluid, or not cutting blood shot meat away from the good meat and disposing of it.

My knickers are not bunched at all. I just wonder why we must delve into grist that common sense SHOUTS to us, is not in our best interest to consume this, or practice that...

That's all I mean. My apologies for only calling out one idea.

EDIT: I think we can all agree that the substances we are discussing are present at certain times in certain animals and that ingesting those materials can cause harm to us. How it arrives is less important than making sure it is excluded from the parts we eat. Is it important to have a specific regimen or process to eliminate or minimize the risk? Yes! Do the methods we already have learned and practice achieve the same result? Probably so! I have been and continue to advocate home processing. Bottom line....if I wouldn't put that in my mouth...I wouldn't put that in my mouth or ask anyone else to.

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Barnacle Brad: Okay - so lets define the positions:

One position asserts that blowing the head off of a deer will get nasty material ON the carcass.

That is bull puckey, unless he removes the hide and rubs it on the meat. Once the hide is off so is the brain matter, or spinal fluid.

While I don't aim for spine shots, I have butchered spine shot deer. A spine shot deer is one of the ugliest and messiest of any wound to have to butcher around. The debris from the spinal cord and resulting fluids are not off the meat once the hide is because the contamination is inside the hide. What happens to those fluids once the hide is removed? It runs down the carcass. One does not have to purposely rub the hide on the meat to cross contaminate it. While the probability is remote, the possibility is there that someone while preparing the animal to field dress can get CNS residue on their hands or knife, and then contaminate the meat while field dressing, Same is true when butchering. You claim to cut away all blood meat and disposing of it before you process your deer. How many folks cut away the blood meat and then proceed to cut the backstraps and tenderloins with the same knife after only wiping the knife off with a paper towel. Experts tell us this doesn't work and leads to cross contamination. Again, sometime a spine hit is accidental or cannot be avoided. The experts tell us to try and avoid them or to be careful when they do occur. Thgis is just continuation of the common sense you speak of. Not bull pucky. The bull puckey is skinning a head shot deer and then cleaning out the body cavity without properly cleaning your hands or tools. Kinda like washing your hands after going to the bathroom and then wiping your hands on your underwear.

Originally posted by Barnacle Brad: Both arguments assume that ANY animal be treated AS IF it were sick and capable of making Human Beings sick.

Are the arguments plausible, or possible, or probable?

All I know is that for myself - I have not seen first hand a person getting sick from Prions.

Many folks have been infected by prions, just cause you have not seen it don't make it a lie. No folks have been known to be infected by the CWD prion yet. As I said, while it is thought that it has not yet evolved to do so, folks thought the same of the "Mad Cow" prion. We were wrong on that one. As for the sick animals....only deer with advanced forms of CWD exhibit symptoms. The majority of animals affected do not show any symptoms. Once deer exhibit symptoms, they do not live long. IOWs most deer with CWD exhibit no symptoms. Even if they did, how many folks while in a hunting situation observe an animal long enough to determine it's sick? For most folks it's OMG, a deer and bang. Thus the experts tell us to treat every animal as if it has CWD. Kinda like treating every gun as if it is loaded. Again....common sense.

CWD has been around in Wisconsin for quite a while. The hysteria exhibited by hunters and others when it first was discovered here was comparable only to the amount of misinformation and fallacies going around. Funny, I see the same hysteria and fallacies from folks in other states as it is found there. The information is out there, one only need to look and heed.

Originally posted by Barnacle Brad:Here is a thought....

If anyone is that concerned or obsessed with prion contamination, they should at least not harvest any sick looking critters, or not hunt in areas known to have documented cases of CWD or other forms of the disease.

As I said, most animals with CWD exhibit no symptoms, and most animal have the disease for 18 months or so before they may show any symptoms, so that throws out your first suggestion. CWD has been documented in most of the southern half of our state. This is where a large part of the state deer herd is and located. The CWD is a disease of high populations and close proximity, thus this is where hunting needs to be done. The deer themselves and their meat is not a threat to humans, nor is hunting and processing them......as long as one take a few minor precautions. Again, these precautions are not just for the safety of the hunters and their families that eat the meat, but to protect other deer from unnecessary exposure. If it's bull puckey to you, so be it. But till you can show me credentials that prove you know more than the experts, I'll follow their suggestions.

 

[Pond James Pond]

That's all I mean.

I see where you're coming from and agree with your summarising edit.

My personal take on this, given the nature of the contagions we are talking about, is simply that I will avoid shots to those body areas when I start hunting.
If there are nasty things within, let them stay contained.

All the reasons why they worry me have been well outlined in Buck460's post.

 

[Barnacle Brad]

Buck, you obviously read at least part of what I said, but take out of context my words. I am denying nothing concerning CWD and process my meat in a way consistent with minimizing any possible exposure and advocate the same to all who read this.

just cause you have not seen it don't make it a lie. No folks have been known to be infected by the CWD prion yet.

And still you managed to dismiss my observation and then confirm in the very next sentence.

Blowing open the skull cavity or shattering the spine would greatly enhance the chance that the prions would get onto the carcass or the meat.

"On to" and "In to" are quite different and that is what I was pointing out. Defending the "on to" argument with "in to" details changes your premise, and as I have mentioned on one or two occasions, most responsible butchering processes minimize any potential exposure to something that may or may not be present in your game and which even "the experts" as you say "know very little about it".

Poke me...I am done...

 

[tahunua001]

And expose your well-cared for game to the risk of cross-contamination?

Standing at the sideline of dozens of meat processors, I have seen little sign of between job sterilization of knives, grinders, hooks and cutting surfaces.

this has been my observations as well. I would never pay to have my animal possibly contaminated.

 

[tahunua001]

well I think it's safe to say that there is little going to be said on this thread without somebody crying "bunk" or taking offense because it differs from what is posted on wikipedia.

let me lay this out for the OP before this thread gets shut down.
1. wild meat, is still safer than domestic meat assuming that the proper precautions are taken when harvesting, field dressing, butchering, and cooking the food.

2. the parasites that you are likely to pick up are more likely to give you disease than the animal itself(IE ticks, and mosquito). check yourself for ticks after you get back from the field, whether you harvested or not. my entire family can relate horror stories about going to pick asparagus and running into Hitchcock worthy swarms of ticks.

3. just because a disease is prevalent in the swamps of Alabama does not mean it is possible or even likely that it can be found or contracted in the desert of Utah, the Mountains of Montana or the Forests of Maine and the same can be said for any disease. your LOCAL Fish and Game or equivalent department will often have a public service website or pamphlet regarding all of the diseases and parasites to look out for in the actual animal populations you will be hunting.

 

[buck460XVR]

And still you managed to dismiss my observation and then confirm in the very next sentence.

No....I acknowledge that that there are several forms of infectious diseases caused by prions, not just CWD, and that humans have contracted and died from some. But as of yet there are no confirmed cases of humans infected with the CWD prion.

"On to" and "In to" are quite different and that is what I was pointing out.

Similar to me pointing out the difference of humans infected by prions and humans infected with CWD prions. Nit-pickin 101.

My point was that without being careful, one can get prions into the meat by cross contamination. Since the prions that cause CWD reside in brain and spinal tissues along with some other organ tissue, that avoiding damage to these reduces cross contamination. As far as I'm concerned into and onto make no never mind. Have spinal matter on the outside of the backstrap and using a knife contaminated with it to remove the backstarp, contaminates it. Onto now becomes into. A bullet that carries spinal or cranial matter with it thru muscle tissue can also contaminate. Using a knife to remove this contaminated meat without proper care can also lead to contaminating meat not previously contaminated.


Maybe we're trying to say the same thing, but are confused by each others methods. I dunno. I do know that info I gave, that came straight from a reliable source was called Bull puckey.

Poke me...I am done...

....you can't be done. Done's in California.

 

[buck460XVR]

And still you managed to dismiss my observation and then confirm in the very next sentence.

No....I acknowledge that that there are several forms of infectious diseases caused by prions, not just CWD, and that humans have contracted and died from some. But as of yet there are no confirmed cases of humans infected with the CWD prion.

"On to" and "In to" are quite different and that is what I was pointing out.

Similar to me pointing out the difference of humans infected by prions and humans infected with CWD prions. Nit-pickin 101.

My point was that without being careful, one can get prions into the meat by cross contamination. Since the prions that cause CWD reside in brain and spinal tissues along with some other organ tissue, that avoiding damage to these reduces cross contamination. As far as I'm concerned into and onto make no never mind. Have spinal matter on the outside of the backstrap and using a knife contaminated with it to remove the backstarp, contaminates it. Onto now becomes into. A bullet that carries spinal or cranial matter with it thru muscle tissue can also contaminate. Using a knife to remove this contaminated meat without proper care can also lead to contaminating meat not previously contaminated.


Maybe we're trying to say the same thing, but are confused by each others methods. I dunno. I do know that info I gave, that came straight from a reliable source was called Bull puckey.

Poke me...I am done...

....you can't be done. Done's in California.

well I think it's safe to say that there is little going to be said on this thread without somebody crying "bunk" or taking offense because it differs from what is posted on wikipedia

what the 'ell does wikipedia have to do with this?

. just because a disease is prevalent in the swamps of Alabama does not mean it is possible or even likely that it can be found or contracted in the desert of Utah, the Mountains of Montana or the Forests of Maine and the same can be said for any disease. your LOCAL Fish and Game or equivalent department will often have a public service website or pamphlet regarding all of the diseases and parasites to look out for in the actual animal populations you will be hunting.

Basically what I said 15 posts ago. All links I posted were from the Wisconsin DNR website. Altho, we are blessed with unlimited amounts of information on the internet, I can't say I even considered wikipedia......

 

[tahunua001]

just speaking in general buck, nobody in particular.

 

[603Country]

Good thing I already ate. Yuck. But...I have been taking precautions for years when skinning deer and hogs. Such as:

Hang them head down
Spray my boots and pants legs with repellent (I hate ticks)
Wear good new latex gloves (I think my favorite gloves are latex)
Skin em and debone the meat from the bones

And I always (almost always) lung shoot the animals.

So far, so good.

 

[jimbob86]

leaving unhealthy animals to harvest the healthy ones is just leaving less healthy ones to reproduce and leaving an overall less healthy population, otherwise increasing the likely hood of even more disease.

When the problem is too many deer, this is not an issue.

The "unhealthy" animals won't make it through the winter to spread more disease..... nature is self correcting like that.